Christina Bradley 0:00
Adam, welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here. How you doing today?
Adam Brazier 0:05
Yeah, great. Thanks. Thanks so much for having me read excited for this.
Christina Bradley 0:08
Yeah, me too. I have got so many questions for you, all of which obviously, are around creativity. But I'm just going to dive right in to your business, the Graffiti Life. And I would love to know what it's about. And yeah, tell me the story. Talk to me about graffiti life. Where did it start?
Adam Brazier 0:27
So Graffiti life is a mural company. We do like paintings in people's homes, we do them commercially in bars, restaurants, we do a lot of advertising campaigns now. So instead of putting a billboard up somewhere, like a poster, we can hand paint that onto a wall. And there's just this, like, people just seem to care about it so much more, it has so much more of an impact, like, people don't take a picture of a billboard. But we can paint something realistically that looks identical to that yet, people who pass by get the phones out, take pictures of it. And there's a story from a few years ago, we painted a big thing for Microsoft and just a passer by happened to like see it like it, take a picture of it posted on Reddit, and they got 2.5 million views in two days. Like that wouldn't have happened if it was a poster, like people have this kind of affinity to creativity to art. And I think as soon as you can see something that's crafted well, and it's something that you're impressed by, there's just this connection to it that you don't have with just something that's printed.
Christina Bradley 1:25
I completely agree. And I also think from an advertisers perspective, it's very subliminal isn't it is it's clever, because people aren't necessarily engaging with the brand first and foremost, they're engaging with the kind of the art and with the creativity. So it's a really great way I think of creating that audience engagement
Adam Brazier 1:45
It is Yeah, and I love working with brands as well, because it allows us to be able to do what we want for a living, which I think is a really hard thing to do. And we when we set up Graffiti Life, like years ago, one of our main aims was to be able to support artists, to be able to give artists jobs, lots of the people that we knew, were amazing artists, yet they're working as landscape gardeners or like in construction. And we're like, these people are so talented, but there's just not the industry for that. So this is where we started to develop the company and just give opportunities to people and allow people to earn a living from doing what it is they actually love.
Christina Bradley 2:22
Which is amazing, isn't it. And I want to talk to you about that. I want to talk to you about working with clients, and then also actually being able to make a living out of, you know, using your creativity, doing your art and ultimately doing what you love. To start with. I'm really curious, I've got some very specific questions about graffiti, if I may. Firstly, I'd like to know for you what your own creative journey has been. Because before you were able to make a career out of your art. What were you doing it as a hobby? Is it something that you've always kind of been involved in? And then what was that sort of transition where you suddenly went? Okay, I'm going to turn this into a business, how did that whole journey work for you?
Adam Brazier 3:00
So art, for me has been a really interesting journey, because I think it's really reflective of the society of the industry. So school, I was always really good at art, it was always something that I really loved doing from being like a really little kid at school, I was like the one who was great at drawing and being in like year three, or four or something. And I was always like the guy who could draw good cartoons. So if someone needed a cartoon drawing, they'd give me a bit of paper, and I do it for them. And I think as soon as, as a young person, you get that positive reinforcement for something you're doing, you just double down on it, because you want that praise, you want to be accepted into a certain group of people. So I always loved it. And it was always something that I would always do kind of on the side, like in the evenings and I almost found it kind of now I look back I see it as kind of almost a meditation where it allows you to just sit there, all the stress goes away and you just get really involved in
Christina Bradley 3:53
Get lost in your own little world.
Adam Brazier 3:56
Yeah, absolutely. And then as kind of school progressed, it got to like gcc and I was I did art and got like 100 out of 100 days, starlight absolutely smashed it. And, but then when it came to picking a levels, I suddenly thought like, actually can actually make a career doing art. So it's like, well, I'm good at like, I'm good at like maths and physics. So for my A Levels I picked like art, and then like maths and physics, because I was like, I need to be able to turn this I need to be able to make money. Yeah, okay.
Christina Bradley 4:26
Need a back up plan...Let's be sensible.
Adam Brazier 4:27
Exactly.
Christina Bradley 4:28
Yeah
Adam Brazier 4:29
Well, I need I needed something a backup, I need my main focus to be something that can earn me money because I need to survive. And I don't know how to make art from a didn't make. I don't know how to make money from art, like the family and the town I grew up in. There wasn't really anyone around you could see that was an artist making money. So it didn't seem like a realistic career option. I'll see the internet wasn't a thing. And so you couldn't just go online and see other people around you. All you could do was see who was around you like within your town. So I was like, well, that's not a career. So I'm going to have to somehow make something that I can still be creative yet use the kind of maths and physics element. So at that point, I decided maybe architecture is the right routes to go...
Christina Bradley 5:13
Okay...
Adam Brazier 5:13
Because it's allowing me to still be creative use a pencil in theory although now everything is on computer, but um, and then use that kind of math physics side of it and merge it together. And that's a high paying career, but I could potentially go to that. So yeah, kind of pick that for my levels, and then went to university studied interior architecture, and then came out of university in 2009, just after the last recession hit. And just like the architecture industry, no one was really employing it, I was just sending out CDs every day. And it was just like, just nothing was happening. I was even applying for kind of jobs in shops and not getting those and I was just like, kind of a wit's end. And then, coincidentally, met this guy who mentioned that he knew someone who was starting a graffiti company. I was like, Okay, well, there's potentially job opportunities. As I started, like, talking about my portfolio, I think I showed this guy my portfolio. I mentioned I did like web design, graphic design, like a lot of like images
Christina Bradley 6:11
Can I interrupt you at this point. Had you done any graffiti up until this stage?
Adam Brazier 6:15
No, no. Okay, so the only ever done kind of like, really realistic portraits have been in pen, pen and pencil like charcoal, kind of normal, kind of traditional fine art materials. And so coincidentally, met this guy mentioned, I did some web design a few weeks later, got a phone call. And he was like, Oh, so I've got some friends are starting up this company. And we need a website designing basically, because we need to get found. And can you help us? So I was like, yeah sure so kind of that was my first probably like a job post uni. And even though it's just a small little website, commission, and design this website, and then they were absolutely blown, like blown away by the quality of it, and said, like, Look, we could really do with someone like you as part of the company on the team, because we don't have this digital skill set. Like, would you like to come and start this with us. So that's kind of how we all first met. And then the early days of really hard, like, there was no money, it was basically out of university, I taken that wonderful overdraft that the bank gives you and spent it all because it just seems like free money. And there wasn't any jobs coming in at the start, because there never is a start. And we were kind of sat in this cold, dark garrage in South Norwood that when I say cold, like really, really cold, it we'd have probably like six oil heaters around the room. And it probably be in the winter, it'd be like 3pm by the time you could even take your jacket off. Because it was just freezing cold. And an hour. It was basically our door to the outside was made of thin wood. And then our postbox was just like just cut into the whole. So we had like a cardboard flap over the front of it to stop to try to have a bit of draft coming in. But yeah, it was it was pretty brutal back then.
Christina Bradley 8:09
Humble beginnings to say the least.
Adam Brazier 8:11
Yeah, absolutely. Like we like to call it the beans a noodle stage because that's all we could afford to eat. Just like beans noodles all the time.
Christina Bradley 8:19
And had a vision clearly that you were all completely committed to?
Adam Brazier 8:25
Well, I think that was it. It was this hadn't been done before in the way that we wanted to do it. And we knew the level of talent was around. And people weren't, people weren't using it. So it was like this is like an untapped market of just brilliant talent. And, and also, this was around the same time that Banksy had become a bit more commercial. So, like my grand knew who he was, for example. And as soon as you've got it being more accepted in society, when suddenly graffiti wasn't seen as vandalism as much. It was more seen as like street art, which when we first started the phrase, street art wasn't really a thing. So it kind of slowly developed into that over time.
Christina Bradley 9:04
So I have something that I wanted to ask you. What is the difference between graffiti and street art? Or is there a difference? Is it just semantics?
Adam Brazier 9:14
It's, I would say there is a difference. And I think if you spoke to someone who is a pure graffiti artist, they would argue that they're completely different. And graffiti is typically like letterforms, the kind of things you'll see kind of on track sides, like on trains, like traditional, like vandalism, I suppose you would call it of just like lesser pieces of people painting their name in some form on a wall, or something to get kind of known for, like almost become famous of the fact that they've got their name everywhere, or getting known in that area. So let's say yeah, there's definitely a difference because most of what was street art is generally generally legal kind of pieces that people have got permission to do. It, it's more of an art, it's more arts based, it's more, it's not traditional letter form. So I think that's probably the difference, like, you get kind of characters within graffiti. But street art is more, just like art on the wall, really, it's generally legal.
Christina Bradley 10:17
But I have that, in my mind a very clear distinction, you know, between what I, you know, what you see on, on the, when you're pulling out of a train station, for example, And that, to me is sort of graffiti. And then when you're walking down shorditch, that's a street art, but, ultimately, the sort of street art comes from graffiti, that's the sort of form I suppose it takes originally.
Adam Brazier 10:40
So I suppose it is kind of come out of the fact that the spray can has evolved because of graffiti into a step into a tool that is good enough to use for art purposes. Whereas previously, like, graffiti would have been done with just like car paint and just paint you'd find in Halfords. So it's a very different tools, what we use today, which is really low pressure, there's a massive array of colours, you can actually do all of these different things. Whereas go back 15 years, there wasn't those tools weren't available. So you can create a realistic portray on a wall somewhere because it just wasn't possible.
Christina Bradley 11:17
So it's not so much necessarily that the graffiti has sort of graduated into art, the tools around it that you use it become more sophisticated to enable that process to happen.
Adam Brazier 11:27
Because graffiti has changed as well. Like the styles have evolved over the years. If you look at like 70s New York graffiti, that's very different to what a lot of people are doing in Europe today. Like some people now like the quality and then like graffiti now is just amazing. Some of the less some of the letter pieces you see. I just like mind blowing, they're so well done. There's so many colours in there, there's so many fades like, it's just their masterpieces they're absolutely amazing. And going back 15-20 years, those things weren't possible with the tools are available. So graffiti has evolved. Street arts evolved. But yeah, they are. I would say that different things.
Christina Bradley 12:04
Yeah. And then I suppose as as its evolved, our perception around it has evolved as well. And it is now seen, obviously it's got it in the title street art, and it is seen as art. But I'm wondering before Banksy before it became slightly more commercialised and mainstream perhaps. And actually called out as being art.... Was it still art? You know, because there's that wouldn't know where it was vandalism. And now it's become street art. And I'm wondering that whether that's just because now people are perceiving it as street art. And we can still say actually, it was still an artistic piece before. And whether we need that kind of external, almost approval or acceptance for something to be considered and validated as art.
Adam Brazier 12:51
Yeah, I think the phrase vandalism is there be a dictionary definition of that I'm sure what you will be like making a mark on someone else's property without permission. So yes, it could be vandalism. But then if Picasso went and drew on someone's back garden fence, would that be vandalism? Like it's just a permission based thing? So I think as soon as it's without permission, then it's technically vandalism. But yeah, graffiti has always been art, it's always been used in, like, in popular culture, as art pieces as album covers, as like posters, designs, like, it's always been a creative art form, it comes out of a person in a creative way. So you might not like it. But there's a lot of things in the modern art galleries I could go to and I would rather be a tag on that wall than whatever this smudge of paint is, so yeah, it all comes down to just people's opinions and perceptions, and all those kind of things.
Christina Bradley 13:50
And it's interesting what you just said about permission, because I think such a big piece around creativity is actually giving ourselves the permission to, to do it, and to embark on a creative project. And so I'm really interested that you use that word, particularly with in terms of, you know, when something is validated, it's basically because they've, you know, been given the permission to create, I think that's really interesting...and so I have a question just on that kind of lines, whether if we, if we're creating something for ourselves, is it as worthy if we're creating it for the masses? What would you say? Because obviously, you were doing art before, I suppose you know, what you said. So when you were when you were younger, it was much more just for yourself, does it... How does it change when you start doing it for for an actual audience?
Adam Brazier 14:50
So I think that so I think with art it all comes down to your personal life what you like personally what you want to do, but there's a difference between art for art's sake for just doing it because you love it, and then are because you want to make a living out of it.
Christina Bradley 15:05
Yeah,
Adam Brazier 15:05
I think that's where the difference is, we spoke to a filter called Toby Shinobi. And he had this brilliant Venn diagram of like, two circles, overlapping, and one side was things that I love. And then everyone knows things that are commercially viable. And then you want to try and find a spot between the two. Because yes, you might love drawing pictures of something. But if there's not a market for that, then you can't make a living doing it. So it's having to find out what actually people want to see want to use want to receive in some way, and then what you like doing, because if you only ever do what you like doing, and it's not commercially viable, you can't make a living from that you can't make any money from it. So you have to kind of compromise in some way of finding that gap between what it what it is that you like, and what the market likes at the same time. Because if you don't do that, then you're gonna just, you're gonna be frustrated if you're trying to make money out of it.
Christina Bradley 16:01
Right, so you've really got to look for what that kind of sweet spot is, basically, hang out in that area
Adam Brazier 16:07 Yeah.
Christina Bradley 16:08 And, I mean, obviously, Graffiti Life is doing incredibly well, you've got lots of clients, I'd like to talk a little bit about creativity, and clients. Because obviously, as creatives, we all have these big ideas and part of my creative work, because I write, I enjoy the freedom of just being able to follow creativity and the creative process, wherever it wants to take me, you know, and I will, I will often start with an initial idea, excuse me, and then I will literally follow it wherever, wherever it goes until I get to the end. And obviously, when it comes to working with clients, they have a brief they have an objective, they have, you know, KPIs, and all sorts of things. So I'm just wondering how you marry up the two and are able to sort of keep the creative integrity of a project, while also incorporating, you know, a clients brief and requirements.
Adam Brazier 17:04
So there's two ways to look at it I suppose and it will depend on the individual clients, because some clients, for example, if we're doing an advertising campaign will come to us with a brief of like, we need this painting on this, there's no room for negotiation there because they've already got a design. So we look at that as well, we'll enjoy painting this
Christina Bradley 17:25
Okay so the actual process
Adam Brazier 17:25
And the money will make, yeah, and then the money will make from it allows us to do more of the things that we love doing. So there's a balance there of taking, like the money to do a commercial job, that we'd have no input in a design, and then allow us to reinvest that back in our team to be able to go out and create more stuff that we want to do. But then what happens if you position yourself in a different way, as I'm an artist that does things that look like this, then people will start to come to you asking for stuff that looks like that, if you go out there with a portfolio of everything. So I can do this, this and this and this and this, then people are going to come to asking you for all sorts of different things. Because they'll be like, well, this is a versatile artist, they can do all of these different things. So you might end up doing things that you don't necessarily want to do. Because a client just believes that they can, they can ask that. So I think where the balance is to actually do what you want to do. That comes down to just talking to the client and having a good conversation with them to work out what it is they want, and why they want that. And then work together to help form a brief that both of you like, because it's very easy to just be like, Okay, well this person said that I want a design that looks like this, but I don't want to paint that. So it's like trying to balance up like, well, how can we? How can we make something that is what they want, because quite often, you'll sit down with a client. And they'll come and say I want something that looks like this. And you're you know that it's not, it's not a good design, it's not good route that they want to go with it. So it's genuinely just expect like talking to them and just educating them. Because a lot of people think clients are stupid and have this really negative view of like, they just cause all these problems. But that's only because they're not educated in in the art form or what you're trying to do. So they might come to you and be like I want so as graffiti, for example, I want this style of thing that like you'll look at and think this isn't cool. This isn't what I want to be doing this. Like they just aren't educated enough in your space to know what is good and what's not. So you can just take that and just be like, Okay, I'm just gonna do this thing I don't like or you can sit down with them and say like, Well, actually, who is who is your demographic here who you trying to appeal to? If you've got a restaurant, what kind of clients come in here, and then once you find out that, then you can actually be like, well, based on what you've just told me there. I don't think this idea you've had will really appeal to those people based on our experience and based on how we know people respond to stuff by taking photos of it, and because it's like we've been doing this for like 10 years. So we know what people respond to, we know what people like. And we know what people will look at and think that's not authentic, that's not cool. So it's just having that conversation and being like, Well, actually, if you if these, this is your audience, and this is the kind of thing you want to achieve, I would suggest that we go down a route that looks more like this, because this is what people actually want to see. Whereas this might seem a bit kind of cliche or generic. So it's just making that balance and like educating the client, with whatever it is that you want to create.
Christina Bradley 20:39
Well, it's also a few things, isn't it, because it's using your expertise, and, and sort of sharing that, as you said, to educate the client. Also, I think, from a client's perspective, you know, they don't know what they don't know, you know, they're an expert at their job, they're not an expert at your job. So actually, I think in order to get the best out of the project, it's your responsibility really, to expand their views on what's possible, especially as it relates to their audience. And then I think the other great thing about what you just said is the fact that actually, by doing that, by having the conversation and by sort of sharing your experience, you're almost crafting the brief to meet your own, sort of, to create something that you actually want to want to create, which I think is such an important part of creating and keeping something alive and keeping the love for it, you've got to find ways to make sure that you still love what you do. So if you're always just at the mercy of a client's brief, and just, as you said, you know, you're just accepting it, do it, bash it out, get the invoice. That's, I think, very quickly, you're going to start to lose the love for something initially you wanted to do.
Adam Brazier 21:43
Yeah. Because I think you have to think of like, why did you get into this to start with like..
Christina Bradley 21:47
Right
Adam Brazier 21:48
Because it's because a lot of a lot of people have this dream of, they're working in a job that they hate, and they're gonna leave and go and do some creative. And then when they go and do some creative, they get stuck in this rut of, well, actually I've moved to do this, I'm being creative, but I'm not actually doing anything that I want to do. And I'm still working for someone else effectively, and left in the exact same situation as what they were before. So I think it is really important to, if you do decide to make that leap, if you do make a move into the creative world, or if you're in it now and you're currently in a bit of a rut, it's working out like what kind of stuff do you want to be doing? And clients? Generally, clients don't have much imagination when it comes to like viewing someone's website or portfolio, they'll look at literally what's there. And then think, will anything on this page, appeal to my clients? Like will it work for me? So if you don't want to be doing some things, stop showing that you do those kind of things.
Christina Bradley 22:40
Right!
Adam Brazier 22:40
You get a lot of people come straight out of university or start their career. And I think that by being as diverse as possible, they'll get more jobs in. And yes, that kind of works to start with. Because if you can do all these different things, and you can approach loads of different people offering loads of different like services. But then you kind of find that, well, what happens then, if one of the services you offered because a bit of money came in? Actually people really liked that, but you hated doing it. But then you still got on your website, and then people keep asking for it. And you end up just doing this over and over and over again. So if people are asking you to do something you don't want to be doing, stop telling them that you do it. It seems so simple. And yes, it might have a bit in the short term for money, but actually going long term and your happiness and your... Like, most people's careers are a really long time. And I think people forget that. And they've got such a scarcity mindset of well, what if another job doesn't come in tomorrow, but they will, jobs will keep coming, you just need to kind of keep putting yourself out. So yeah, so it's important to make sure you're only putting out stuff that you want to be doing. And if if there's a certain field, you're getting into look at like, Okay, well, I need to build a portfolio around this thing, I really like the aesthetic of this thing I like doing, and then put that out there. And that often requires working for free, like doing a lot of things of your own, like off your own back. You might need to get a second job to afford to be able to create these things that you actually want to show other people because, again, there's this little like thing that people get stuck in of, well, people aren't, people aren't paying me to do this. So I can't, I can't do it when you just need to go and do it yourself. Like anyone that we've spoke to who is successful as like they've done things for free, because that's the only way to build a portfolio of exactly what you want to be doing.
Christina Bradley 24:30
And also, it's the only way to build experience that you have to start from somewhere. And that somewhere is unlikely to get you paid straight away. So so you sort of have to do that with with everything with writing. It's exactly the same, you know, books. If you're writing fiction, certainly books aren't commissioned. You know, before the book is written you have to go through that. Yeah, exactly. And you know, the first draft will be shitty, and you have to just keep going back to it and improving as you go. You don't become you know, a talented or experience writer overnight, and I think it's the same with all creative endeavours really.
Adam Brazier 24:37
Yeah,
Christina Bradley 25:03
Can you talk to me a little bit with graffiti life about what the whole kind of creative process looks like? So when you get a brief in, it is a bit more elaborate and the client isn't being so prescriptive in terms of what they want. How, how are you or, how easily are you able to sort of generate ideas on demand?
Adam Brazier 25:24
So we've got a really great team at graffiti life of amazingly creative people. And we generally just will sit down in a circle, like in the office, and be like, Hey, this is brief. And we'll just throw ideas out there. And I think one thing is really important is the fact that we try to make it so no ideas are ever shut down. No idea seems stupid. Because I think that's the problem, you get in like bigger corporate places, where there's definitely a hierarchy. And it's almost like the creative director, whatever they think is gonna go. So there's almost no point to anything, because I'm always going to be shut down by the creative director, or, like, what they say what they want is going to happen anyway. So I think having a really level playing field when it comes to creative input is really, really important. So some of our best kind of work has come out of sat down in a circle, just throwing ideas out there, and someone will have a absolutely ridiculous idea but then that will lead someone else to be like, Oh, actually, well, that reminds me of something that I saw a few years ago. And then you can bring that back round. So what we tried, yes, that's kind of what we try and do is Yeah, just work as a team and just throw ideas around. And just make sure that no one's everyone feels comfortable to share their thoughts.
Christina Bradley 26:35
Yeah, and I think that's so important, because I've, you know, worked in the creative industries for many years and I talk about this all the time. But I always felt that there's a sort of a creative class system, whereby there's people with the word creative in thier job title that you know, have full ownership over creativity, and then everybody else, by default, is not creative, and therefore really limited in terms of the ideas that they're confident enough to share. And you know, that That, to me is, is such a shame, because everybody has something to contribute. And I believe that everybody should be, you know, engaging with their imaginations and really offering up ideas. And I think that that's how, you know, the creative process works at its best.
Adam Brazier 27:12
And I think a really important thing to note here as well, is the fact that it's not just our kind of designers, and creatives who are in these meetings, it's the project managers, it's our, like, I say, people who work in sales, because everyone is creative, everyone will have an idea. And everyone's been to events, everyone's like consumed different kinds of content, so just because they're not like the creative person on paper, right? Like, they still have ideas, and they can bring ideas in that you might as a creative, you'd be a bit kind of detached from because you've got this idea of it has to be this brand new thing. That's all like, amazing. Whereas actually, someone who's who isn't like that might have been to an event recently. And so I saw this thing, I really liked it. And I think that's why it's important. It's about the market. It's about understanding people and what people actually like, rather than just this ego thing of I want my design to go forward. And I think that is so important. It's like making sure that ego, there's no ego, I think that's one thing that we've succeeded in over the year. Because graffiti is a very ego led thing, you're writing your name on the wall all over the place to get known. So we, when we first started, I always tried to make sure that we didn't have an ego, we weren't writing into our own names, we were a collective of people. And if you paint something, it gets painted over. It doesn't matter. Like you've got a photo of it, they'll last forever. There's no ego there. And I think that comes down to probably within our circle of staff as well. There's no ego in that situation is everyone feels on a level, and everyone's just working together to make something better.
Christina Bradley 28:55
Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. And I think it's so important, and it's so often overlooked. And I think, you know, when it comes to creativity, ego actually plays such a big part, whether it's publicly or just, you know, on a more personal level, where, you know, we're scared of putting our work out there because you know, what if our ego gets bruised, or indeed we put our work out there, and then inevitably, the critics get hold of it and then our ego does get bruised. You know, I feel like it's this constant sort of tug of war really, between creativity and managing our ego. I think it's a, an interesting one. And it sort of feeds into mindset, and how important mindset is when it comes to creativity, and actually being able to sort of get a project done, not just have the ideas, but actually see all the way through to completion. And more importantly than that, enjoy the process, which I think sometimes in the mix people completely forget to do. I mean, we see art as you know, is the whole thing isn't about tortured souls and it has to be hard in order for it to be good. And, you know, and I've experienced it myself with my writing the fact that, you know, on a good day, I love it. But it's also, oh, god, there's so many weeks that passed. And I'm just like, this is a nightmare. I hate it. And so I feel like a lot of that comes down to adopting the right creative mindset to make sure that actually, we're really getting the most out of out of the process and enjoying it. Because at the end of the day, I feel like that is the whole point. So I wonder whether you can talk a bit to that.
Adam Brazier 30:30
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that, I think the process is the most important thing. And like the definition of the word passion, comes what the origin of the word passion comes from, to sacrifice in Latin. And I think that's really interesting, because it's like to do something that you actually love, there needs to be some form of sacrifice. And that's going to be working really long hours, it being really hard for a really long period of time. But what comes at the end of it is going to be great. So if you're going to make that sacrifice, and you're going to put yourself through all of this hard work, you need to be enjoying that hard work along the way. Because otherwise, it's just going to drive you mad. and enjoying the process is the most important part, doing it doing anything because like, that's, that's your life, like your life is the process. You can't spend your life just having these small little wins of, oh, I've worked on this project for two months, and I got this little bit rush at the end of it. Yes, it's finished. Because it's like when people what like, it's just, it's like when people work for corporate or in most, most people who work who will be miserable most like 48 weeks of the year, but then the four weeks they have holiday, or the two weeks they go abroad or whatever it is, they absolutely love. And they almost lift those short periods of time where I'm like, Well, why don't you try and just live for the 52 weeks, like, yes, it might not be 100, like, it's better to live at 80% happiness rather than zero percent, and then 100% for a really short period of time. So I think you know, whatever it is you want to get into, you need to make sure that that's something you love doing every day. And I think the like the most addictive thing that people have is their paycheck. And that's a really hard one to get over. So it's like, you need to be able to find something that you would do for free like he would do every single day, because you love doing it. Because like, especially the staff as we love doing what we did, and we weren't earning any money. It was like a good couple of years, I would say before we even paid ourselves a wage that was like, like normal. And it was really, really hard. But we loved what we did.
Christina Bradley 32:44
And that's the fuel that feeds you.
Adam Brazier 32:48
Absolutely. And I think if we were going into it to make loads of money, we would have quit, because we weren't making any money in those first few years. And it was hard. And I think that's the mindset that you need to have this, like you need to find something you just love doing all the time, rather than this is something that's going to make me loads of money. And I think it's fine to just accept that you might never be rich. And we've all got this mindset of this is one day, we're going to live in this big house, we're going to drive these cars, we're going to holiday in these places. But that might not happen. And that's completely fine. If you love all of the rest of the time, then effectively you're you're winning, because yes, you might not have these amazing things that you perceive as being this goal that you want to achieve. But you're enjoying every day, like you'd like I go to bed at night. Like I'm like, Oh, I can't wait to wake up tomorrow morning. Because I've got these things I want to do because I can't like because they're enjoyable. It's like when I was a kid, and I would like we would be going on holiday the next day. And I'd be really excited to get up to go and do that thing. Because school wasn't the most fun thing in the world. Whereas now it's like I go to bed in the evening and like, I'm can't wait to get tomorrow because I've got these things on my list I really want to do. And a lot of people don't have that. Like if you find yourself every evening going to bed dreading the next day, because works happening, then something needs to change because you're just you're wasting your life. You're not you're not being as happy as you can be. Yeah, no, I mean, I literally just sat here nodding my head along with you. I just agree with absolutely everything that you've said. And I'm wondering whether clearly this is something you feel very strongly about. And I'm wondering whether this was the sort of initial impetus for your wonderful podcast, creative rebels. And I know it's specifically sort of talking to well, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have conversations with individuals who have sort of rebelled against the nine to five and have really created their own path and doing work that they love. And I suppose you're talking to these people who maybe have that desire but haven't yet been able to find that path for themselves and helping them along that journey. Is that right? Or have just completely ruined your interpretation of creative rebels, please tell me... Yeah, you were right there. And so it kind of started because we were just getting emails from like younger people all the time being like, how have you done this? Like, I would love to be able to have a creative career, you've obviously got like a team of people, you're doing all these amazing things. But I want to do what you're doing, like, how can that happen? And like David was always respond to people in like, lengthy emails of like, well do this, do this, and this, and they got to a stage where there was so many coming through. And the answers just all seem the same. So there was like, David had a folder of things that he would copy and paste, because he's like, well, this is, this is the answer to that this is the answer to that. And we were in a situation where we're like, We're so happy doing this. Other people need to know how to do this, too, because it's not something we're ever taught at school. It's not really even like, like, YouTube is amazing. There's everything on there. But there's not really like, this is the way to make this a success out of a creative career. Like, in one place, you kind of have to search around for it. So we kind of thought like, well, podcasting is getting big, it's something that people are into now, like the markets, there for it, we want to help all these people that are messaging us, how can we do scale to help people who aren't even messaging us? And just like be able to share that with other people? So how can we scale this help to be as big as possible? And at the time, it seemed like okay, well podcasting, this seems to be like the way to do this. So we can give away our knowledge, and then also get the knowledge of so many experts who've done this, too.
Christina Bradley 36:39
Yeah. And it's interesting, because I read that it's, the podcast is now number one in the business charts, which I feel like that's evidence that people are moving more towards creativity, and really seeing the benefit of creativity in their life in their work and indeed, in their businesses. And I'm just wondering whether you think that that is a trend, that creativity is becoming more of a, an area that everybody wants to start having a little bit more of it in their lives?
Adam Brazier 37:08
Yeah, I think like, I'm pretty sure the, the way that kind of mental health and mindfulness is becoming a lot more kind of prevalent in the public eye at the moment, I think creativity will be that next movement of people who realise actually I can do, this is the kind of thing I want to be doing with my life. And I think because of the internet, you're exposed to so many people now who you're seeing succeed, whereas like when I was a kid at school, that wasn't possible. As I was saying earlier, it's like, there was no one that I could view to be like, this is possible. There is now you can go on the internet, you can listen to our podcasts. And every week, we're talking to someone who has done exactly that. And they managed to turn what they love into a career. And with the way that AI is going and all of that technology is making more and more jobs obsolete. One thing robots can't do is be creative. So it's just opening up the chance for like, anyone out there who feels like they're creative, who isn't doing something creative. Like your job, depends what you do, but it may be at risk in the future. Whereas if you start doing things that are creative now, if it's just a little side project, it's just a small thing that you're just doing for fun, that could really benefit you in the future. Like, we're kind of in COVID at the moment, and so many people we've seen who've been okay, have been someone who's got this extra creative endeavour that they've been doing on the side, they've had a bit of a diverse mix in what they do. And, like, I think it's so important to be able to build up that little thing on the side, whether it makes money or not, that's not important. I think if you get into it to make money, then it's probably not going to happen. It's going to stress you out various by having, effectively a hobby, a creative hobby, is just so important for you like for your mental health for your well being for your safety in the future. Yeah, I think it's so important.
Christina Bradley 39:02
I agree. I think it's, I think it's essential is what I think. But I also just want to kind of interrogate something a bit further, I suppose. Because I think there's a big misconception with with creativity. And as soon as we hear that word, we're immediately associating it with I think art. And you know, actually what I would call crafts, when you're already established because you've got the skill at something. So people are looking at other people's crafts and going, Well, I'm not creative because I can't achieve that result. And that I think, is that is actually throwing everybody and stopping people from embracing their own creativity because they don't fully understand what it means to be creative and to engage in a creative hobby. I mean, I would argue that, you know, the creative, sorry, the podcast that you've got Creative Rebels, that in itself is a creative expression. You know, I think conversations have a creative element to them. I don't think It's just kind of one size fits all. So I'm keen to sort of understand what your interpretation of creativity is.
Adam Brazier 40:08
So creativity for me is essentially problem solving. It's, there's a problem, and you need to solve it. If that was a podcast, there's a problem of people aren't happy in their day to day work. We want them to be. So we're using the podcast to solve that. That's how we've been creative there. Like, with my art as an example. Yes, that's back to the kind of traditional sense of it. But I'm treating that like problem solving. I'm not, if I'm replicating something realistic, it's how can I get this image from here, onto this piece of paper onto this wall, or whatever it is, and having to solve the problems that get you there is that you have to be creative to go to think of those things to do that, do it it's like. So that's why I believe that everyone is creative, because everyone can solve a problem. Everyone solves hundreds of problems on a daily basis. And it's even just like, for example, we're growing tomatoes in our balcony at home. Like one creative thing you could say, is the fact that it got windy. So I got a couple of sticks and some netting, and just basically made a shield for it. Like, that's not, that's not being arty, that's not like that's just doesn't require me to stop happening. Yeah,
Christina Bradley 41:16
Right. It doesn't require an artistic background to do that. Exactly. It requires figuring it out. Yeah,
Adam Brazier 41:22
Exactly. And I think that's what creativity is, especially like and that's what businesses is, there's a problem, you need to solve that problem for someone, how you gonna do that. And every little thing is a problem. It's like when we first started the business, there was a problem of, well, we've got this product of being able to paint for people, but no one knows about it. So how are we going to solve that? And that came down to building a website learning SEO, doing those things to get as found. So creativity is just answering everything with like, how can I solve this problem? And I think that's where the mind, and that's where the mindset thing comes into it. If having that belief of everything is solvable, you can sort this out. Because I think, where people don't see themselves as creative, because they've told themselves that so many times, it's, it's almost like, if I said, Look, I've got this problem, go to LA and I can't help with that, with having the mindset of like, well, how could I fix this? How could this happen? That's the mindset shift that people need to take of, how can I make this more positive? How can I improve this thing? And just always having that mindset now of like, yes, there's an issue over here, I'm going to solve that. And as soon as, as soon as you start doing it, then it becomes this just like, absolute cycle of, well, I've got the confidence now that I can call myself creative. And that's where creativity basically comes from. It's just the confidence of problem solving. So if you can solve a problem it works, then you'll be like, Okay, the next time a problem comes up, you're going to be more confident to go and say, Yes, I can do that. And when that happens so many times, then you're going to have the self belief that you can do anything that you can go and create anything, everything's possible. If it's done by another human, it's possible for you to do it too.
Christina Bradley 43:07
Right. Absolutely. And I think to that end, and looking at problem solving, is not necessarily knowing the answer before you've begun, it's actually saying yes to the invitation to try and figure it out. And then beyond that, it's experimenting, and it's playing. And it's, you know, just getting your hands dirty, in order to find out what that solution is. And you might not get to it the first time, you might have to keep digging around and playing. But I think so much of it is about that willingness to sort of go out of your comfort zone, and to experiment a little bit and to, you know, work out what the solution is.
Adam Brazier 43:45
Yeah, I was listening to something that Seth Godin said the other day, and it really, really intrigued me it was about curiosity, and how to, and how, as we get older curiosity kind of like comes out of it. So when we're kids, we're constantly curious, asking questions all the time, we're going to look for new things. And effectively what curiosity is, is the is doing something for the first time. And as we get older, I feel like we're less, we're less likely to go and do things for the first time, because we feel like what we already know, it's kept us safe, we're fine doing that was actually to go and do something new for the first time. That seems risky. And again, it comes back around to the confidence of, well, if you actually go and do things the first time often, then you don't lose that ability to be curious to keep finding things because you have the confidence in yourself that by going to do this thing that you're curious about it worked. So I'm going to go and do it again. And you just build up this habit of always being curious, always learning new things always going to solve new problems.
Christina Bradley 44:45
Yeah. Yeah. And I find that in my own work that that's how I dig further into the subject matter is just by being curious, you know, and delving deeper and deeper all the time. So I think curiosity and creativity really go hand in hand, I think they're kind of best pals. And I really think people who are looking to, you know, engage with their creative creativity more. One of the ways to access that is to just start being more curious, more curious about yourself and who you are, what you're doing, what other people are doing, what interests you. Start there. And, you know, Liz Gilbert, she has a wonderful talk that she gives about the relationship between curiosity and creativity. And it's very much about, you know, it's at the moment, everybody's trying to find their passion. And when you sit down and think, gosh, right, what's my passion, and that's actually quite a hard nut to crack. Whereas actually, you don't need to do it. So sort of rigorously, you can start just gently by just a more playfully by just asking, What am I curious about, and then just kind of follow those breadcrumbs and see where they take you. And I think that that's such a playful route into creativity.
Adam Brazier 45:53
Yeah, we say you don't find a passion, you discover it. And it's, it's something that is, it's not just going to hit you in the face, it's not gonna be like, right there for some people is you always know those people who have just been great at this thing, since they were a kid, and they've just gone with it their whole lives, and they've just been great. Most people don't have that. And I feel like there's a definitely a pressure now with society of everyone needs to have a passion everyone needs to have this thing I think that makes people really is Yeah, I think that makes people so anxious that they actually then don't go and find anything. And I think it is so important. If you don't have anything that you love yet, just you just need to try things, you need to find something you have a slight interest in even the slightest thing like I think a good way to find out is to just go on Instagram, scroll down, look at who you're following. If you're following someone who's a chef, then maybe if all you do then have a slight interest in food, you might have never thought about going down that route. But you've got an interest. Because you already you're looking at it, you've subscribed to that. So maybe then go and try some food classes. Right? If you can. Yeah, you can. Yeah, it's, it's fine. Like, if you have a slight interest in something, you need to pull that thread and keep going down that route, and giving a good shot as well. Because I think it's very easy to if I wanted to get into yo-yoing like the first time I pick up a Yo Yo, I will be awful at yo yoing. And I could after the first time be like no shit at this. I'm just not going to try. Yeah, exactly. Whereas actually, if I give myself two months dedicated to trying to learn this thing, and then I hate it, then Fair enough, I can move on from it. But it's giving it giving, it's giving something a good enough go. It's like finding that interest, giving it a really good go. And then making a decision of like, do I want to progress this further. Because you sometimes you'll find that actually, now I can do a few tricks. That's actually really I love that that's really great. It's like when I used to skateboard as a kid. And that was a good example, because you were awful for so long. And then you could do Ollie, Ollie up a cup now be like, wow, something now. And that little rush you get from like, Oh my God, I've actually improved here, I've worked at this, it's been like, falling over a bunch of times. It's been awful. I've it's been so hard. Yeah, I've been really hurt. yet. By doing this one little thing, it makes it all worth it. And then I can now Ollie I want to learn to kickflip. And again, that takes hours and hours and hours of practice on myself in the shins. 400 times, I'm going to flow over loads of times going to scratch gonna rip my clothes or scratch my hands. But then when I get that next kick flip, I'm gonna be so pleased. And then that'll keep going and keep going, keep going. And you're prepared to put yourself through that pain to achieve those little things going forward. So it's all working towards that bigger goal of like, Well, I know if I keep doing this, I can be happy. That's so that's what I'm aiming for. So it's just putting in all that work to get there.
Christina Bradley 48:56
Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's so true. And one of my final questions because I'm really curious. I've heard you refer to not particularly in this interview, but just generally on the on your web copy about not following a blueprints. And I'm just interested, how that's what you mean by that as a as a sort of a philosophy I suppose to life into business and happiness, about what it means to not follow a blueprint.
Adam Brazier 49:25
So I think everyone comes from different places, everyone starts at different level, you'll get people who are from a wealthier background to have an instant step up because they've already got the connections, they've already got the money to fund things. Not everyone comes from those different scenarios. I think it's a blueprint, depending on where you start is a very different like you there's so many different routes to take to get to where you need to get to. And I think if there was a blueprint, it would almost be like, this is the answer. And if there was the answer, then everyone would know it, everyone would be doing it. So I think it is A lot of it comes down to just personal experience, and you have to go and try things. And it's so interesting because we've interviewed hundreds of people now from all sorts of different backgrounds, who do completely different things. And everyone's got there in a slightly different way. What you can start to see though, is once you start to analyse these hundreds of people, there are patterns. And I think that's what we try and talk a lot about in the show, there's not effectively a blueprint, there are certain things that you can go and do that are going to make you succeed. So I would say, there is some form of blueprint, but not as in like a, you do this, this, this and this. As a YouTuber, I follow Casey Neistat. And he posted a video probably like three years ago now just explaining what he called, I think it's like the Tarzan method, where you've got an A, you've got a B, and most people assume that you go from A to B, but actually you kind of like swing up, down, up, down, but you're always heading away from it, then back towards it, and then away from it and back towards it. And eventually, you'll get that it will never be the route You're expected. Because you never know who you're going to meet along the way, and how those people can help you. And like there is a certain element of luck involved. But then again, I don't believe in luck. Because I think everything, like you make your own luck. You have to put yourself in situations for those things to happen. If you want to get from A to B as quick as possible, you need to make the connections with people who can get you there. Because yes, you can swing on your own for ages. But you might someone you might be talking to someone like I was talking to someone yesterday, who started as a random conversation. And then that evolved into Oh, actually, we know loads of the same people. And I've seen you at this event before. And then it was like, Oh, well actually, like I've got this restaurant here that could do with something to work during for and it's like, I never knew that would happen. I couldn't have planned for that to happen. It was just by being open and late in that conversation. Flow. Don't allow that allow me to get from A to B slightly quicker. But yeah, I think there is no definitive, this is what you have to do. But there are definitely things to do that will make you get there quicker. Yeah. I really appreciate that. And I think, you know, the reason that that sort of idea of not necessarily following a rigid blueprint really resonated with me is because I feel like that's very much sort of how I've led my life not really following the rules instead of making it my own. Make it my own rules, I suppose. And I think that that is is quite intrinsic to the whole creative process. I was just really fascinated to get your your sort of thoughts on that. But I think the blueprint as well is what everyone does, that is the go to school, go to university, get a job, retire, like that's the blueprint that that that's something that's set in stone is a rigid, this is the path that you follow. And that doesn't change too much. Whereas actually, if you want to break out of that, then you need to ignore the blueprint, and then make your own path.
Christina Bradley 53:01
Yeah, and deviate from this, this blueprint that is set by others and not set by yourself. And I think that that goes back to, you know, how we find happiness, and, you know, our, our mindset around it all, I think it's all very much interlinked. Just conscious of time. So I've got one final question for you, Adam, thank you so much for this. I've just loved every second of it. My final question is how, let me set start this again, what does it mean to you to live a creative life?
Adam Brazier 53:31
I think it's just being happy, doing what you want to do every single day. And always striving towards improving yourself. I think that I suppose in a nutshell, is what I would say, like, I want to be able to go to bed an evening, wake up the next day excited for the day ahead, to be able to go and do something that you love doing to be able to improve your craft to learn something new, it's like, and that all just comes back to happiness. It's like creativity, to me, is happiness. And I think if you can create something creative for yourself, that can sustain you. It's only gonna lead to a more fulfilled and happy life.
Christina Bradley 54:11
Yeah, that's brilliant. I love that. I think that's a brilliant note to end this on. And just finally, Adam, if people want to find you, and specifically the podcast, which I think you know, is a must listen to, how do people go about following you.
Adam Brazier 54:25
So you can just find us if you search Creative Rebels on any podcast platform, so iTunes, or Spotify, all the things and you'll find is there and we're on YouTube as well. So we put out videos of all of our podcasts now on YouTube as well. So if you prefer to watch them, you can watch our lovely faces on there too. And then if you want to follow us on Instagram, it's at Rebels Create. And then if you want to follow me personally, you can search for Adam Brazier on Instagram.
Christina Bradley 54:54
Beautiful, thank you so much and it's been a real pleasure and I hope everyone has enjoyed listening to this as much as I've enjoyed having this conversation, Adam, thank you.
Adam Brazier 55:03
Brilliant thanks so much loved this.