Christina Bradley 0:00
I'm joined today by Morna young, who is going to be here talking to me all about the subject of creativity. Morna, lovely to have you on the creativity campus podcast. How are you?
Morna Young 0:11
Hello, I'm very well, thank you. And thank you for having me. How are you?
Christina Bradley 0:16
I'm good. I'm good. We've had some technical issues, which has kind of thrown me from the start. But I think I think we're all good and up and running now.
Morna Young 0:24
Yeah, creativity and technology don't always go hand in hand, right?
Christina Bradley 0:28
They really don't, they really don't. And I thought Morna we could just start by, maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourself. And I mean, your entire career is built on being a creative, can you just tell the listeners exactly what you're what you're up to in your professional life?
Morna Young 0:45
Absolutely. Um, so I suppose now, I'd be most known as a playdate. But I do also work as an actor. And as a musician. I do quite a lot of freelance writing, for magazines, and online blogs. But yet, back in the day, I originally started as a journalist, and then went to drama school. So then, at that time, I kind of thought, actually, combining the drama school training as an actor, and a journalism training seemed to lead me to playwriting, which is maybe a bit of an odd curve, but it made sense to me at the time.
Christina Bradley 1:26
Yeah, no, but it absolutely does. You've, you really have sort of spent your entire profession in the creative field, even even your training.
Morna Young 1:35
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting, because I think a lot of younger artists asked me know if they need to train to be a writer, or trained to go into any kind of creative profession. And I think that's one of those slightly ongoing debates about whether you need a qualification to be a writer or not. And it's something that always really fascinates me. Because so much of being a creative isn't about, you know, being sat at your desk and, and typing away in exams. It's, it's actually the opposite of that. But, yeah, I think there's a lot that training can do to kind of help release us and give us some of the techniques that we need to become more creative. And but yeah, it's one of those very interesting debates. I'm not sure if we're going down that route today.
Christina Bradley 2:22
But you're right, it is an interesting one in it. Yes, I definitely don't think you need training in order to be creative. But I think it potentially gives you the permission and as you say, a skill set and the techniques in order to be able to really access your creativity and use it in a certain field. But I want to talk a little bit today, because I've got a whole list of questions. And I want to dive in really talking about imagination and inspiration. I thought we could start there, those biggies. And, and I'd love to learn a little bit more about your own creative process. And you I read something about with one of your plays, you actually were in a pub in Glasgow, and you saw a karaoke singer. And that that was the inspiration and I'm curious to know whether actually inspiration for you is something you're actively always in hot pursuit of, or whether inspiration just lands on you.
Morna Young 3:20
Oh, good question. And inspiration is one of those funny words, isn't it? And we talk about it a lot. You know, I feel inspired or Yeah, I found inspiration. And, and again, it's a question I quite quite often mull over what is inspiration? And where does it come from? The story, you mentioned there about the pub, I think is um, it's such a nice little example, because I was out with an actor friend of mine. And, you know, we wasn't a work meeting, we were just having a couple of drinks and having a good time. And, and, you know, watching this slightly mad karaoke going on where you had all these brilliant characters going up. And him and my pal, Joyce, she'd turned a little Elvis impersonation, and it was it just made me laugh, and it was great. And I'd said, you know, there's a play in that. And I didn't, you know, I didn't think much about it. And she didn't think much about it until a week or so later. And I was at home and I was meant to be writing a different play, which is quite a big, you know, big political play something serious, and I couldn't quite get into it. And and suddenly, this little idea of Joyce as Elvis popped back into my head and just, you know, sometimes new ideas, the ones that sit in, you know, wave you in the corner when you should be doing something else. Actually, that that's, that's the piece that I want to work on right now. And within about two hours, I sketched out the entire story and it just float. And it just flowed.
Christina Bradley 5:02
I love that.
Morna Young 5:02
Those are the moments that you got it, that doesn't happen very often. But when it does, that's inspiration and that magic score. Yay, yeah. And I love that feeling. And I love the joy. And just, it was almost as if my, you know, my body and mind just kind of gave away for a little bit and said, oh, there's that story you need to tell. So we're just gonna, we're just gonna let that come out, you know. And, and I loved it, I loved that experience. And afterwards, I kind of sat back and went, you know, I don't know why that story wanted to be told right now, it wasn't the big political play, you know, it wasn't seeing something big and bold about the world. But it was the play that that I needed to write in that moment. And it's a joyous little play.
Christina Bradley 5:49
Wonderful, and it's also, it just shows that inspiration almost finds you and then when it does it, you have a choice as to whether you follow it and how far you follow it. And, and that's a really lovely example of actually making that decision to just be curious enough to see where it was going to take you. And then the fact that the process was, so I guess you're in a real state of flow with that, that it just shows that there's something going on that's maybe bigger than you are.
Morna Young 6:18
Um, I mean, I it's really interesting, I suppose, because I think I view the idea of, of inspiration, maybe slightly differently now, than I did previously, before I was a professional artist. And I suppose know that. Because because creativity is my profession, quite often, I'm having to work from a place that I that I pitch ideas, or I'm invited to write something. And so often the business will overtake the inspiration side. Does that make sense?
Christina Bradley 6:50
Yeah, that makes perfect
Morna Young 6:53
Yeah, so I find sometimes I end up working these two slightly different ways that, you know, there's, there's the beautiful ideas that that kind of float in and they're the ones that I you know, that that I can I can embrace and like, like the the Elvis karaoke play, that kind of take on a life on their own. And then they're slightly the other side of it, which is, which is a bit more of a contained beast, you know, when when you're commissioned to write a piece and, and that there are certain boundaries in place. And I think when I met the moment is kind of looking at those two distinct things and, and kind of going, how do you bring them together more, because I suppose it's so easy. It's so easy to fall into even as even as an artist, the kind of admin side of things, you know, on the business side of things, because there's always bills to be paid. And there's deadlines. And, and, you know, how do you? How do you keep the kind of glorious, imaginative, inspired kind of world and the kind of deadline driven place as well. And I find that a really interesting crossover.
Christina Bradley 8:04
I would agree, and a really, really challenging one to navigate, actually, because it's one of these things, can you have ideas and inspiration on demand? You know, because it's lovely, as you say, to be sort of taken by the moment and something comes to you, and you have this fabulous idea, and you just want to follow it as far as it will go. And that is a joyful process. And that's wonderful. But I think when we spend too long waiting for that to happen, we potentially don't create anything. Because we don't feel like we have that impetus, where actually, that's not often how creativity works, you actually do have to just sit down and do the work. And I often find that, you know, I'll have an idea and initial idea. And, you know, it's definitely not fully formed, but it's a sort of a seed. And then it's when I sit down to do the work, that the rest, it sort of builds momentum. And it's almost as if the rest of the ideas reveal themselves along the way. And that's part of the sort of creative process for me, I don't know whether that resonates with you at all.
Morna Young 9:07
Yeah, absolutely. And quite often when I'm writing the first draft of a play, and when you're play writing, I normally work in a process of three draft. So the first draft is always the kind of, you know, the, I call it the magical, unwieldy draft where you kind of anything can happen and you let it you know, you let the beast school where it needs to go. The second draft, I would say, is killing the magic because then you have to be very sensible and figured out actually what, you know, what logistically works and what doesn't. And then the third draft, hopefully, you know, is your kind of shiny one that has both the magic from the beginning and the kind of logic and science of the second draft and you're presenting something, you know, with with both of those things. And I just went off a tangent.
Christina Bradley 9:53
No, you didn't, you didn't didn't i was listening to that with interest because I think that that is such a great way of doing it. I think so often if you can have these ideas that you think where do you Where do you begin with this? And, and I think it's Firstly, what you were saying with the first draft, I think that's so lovely that you just keep saying yes to the process, and allowing yourself to go wherever it is that you want to go. And then the second draft is where you kind of pull it back a little bit. And, and, and then ultimately, the third draft is where you hope you've got a product at the end of it, which is actually containing a little bit of both of those things. Yes, a really a really great way of working.
Morna Young 10:32
Oh, and I realised what I was going to say earlier was I quite often realise in later drafts that I've left myself clues in the first draft, which are things at the time that I don't necessarily understand. And you know, quite often it might just be a small line that a character says, or, you know, just a hint of something. And it's maybe not until the third draft, I finally realised what that's about. So it's almost as if I have to catch up with myself yet. Oh, my brain was doing something I just hadn't. I just didn't recognise
Christina Bradley 11:04
Last to know, in some ways.
Morna Young 11:06
Yeah, yeah.
Christina Bradley 11:07
I love that. And I've often found as well, that the, it feels very much like the story already exists. And my job is to sort of dig away at it and discover that story. And that just made me think that when you said that, that, you know, it's, it's almost in that sense, like, you've left yourself a little clue because a deeper part of yourself actually understands what this is going to look like. And then your cognitive brain just needs to catch up with that.
Morna Young 11:34
Absolutely. And there's something that's so magical about that. That is that you know that you're that amongst everything, our brains are kind of working away and problem solving and creating an and we're not even aware of it sometimes. I think there's something So, yes, so magical. I'm gonna grasp onto that word magic, because it's making me think of Elizabeth Gilbert's book, Big Magic,
Big Magic. I love that book so much. Yeah, me too. And I love that idea of, you know, kind of everyday magic. And I think she starts the book by saying, you know, what, what is creativity?
Christina Bradley 12:11
She does? And also what treasures within yourself, will you discover, and that kind of relates to what we're talking about? now. It's, if you keep digging, what can you find within yourself, and I think it's beautiful. It is, and it is magical. It is. And I think it also feels like you're in collaboration with something other than just yourself. Which is just, for me, anyway, that's how it's been. It's, you know, I've written things and then thought, I didn't know I had it in me to write that. And that's, that feels like magic to me.
Morna Young 12:46
I love that feeling. And I love I have it sometimes, you know, maybe a couple of months, or even a year or so after writing something. And I look back and I go, I don't I don't know how I did that. And I mean, I can be incredible critical of my work. And, you know, there's nothing quite like a press night in theatre when you when you have all the reviewers there and and you can hear, you know, you could listen to every line that you go, I should have done this and should have done that. And tear it apart. There's always it there's this beautiful moment, quite often further down the line that that I will look back on something and go actually like that, like that scene is really special. Like, where did
Christina Bradley 13:28
Where did I do that come from?
Morna Young 13:29
Yeah, yeah. And that flip is really interesting, I think from the immediate kind of perfectionist who it's not, you know, and we're suddenly in front of the public. And it's, and I'm not quite convinced that this works, too. Yeah, a little bit further down the line, actually appreciating it more. And yet, see, see and kind of, from a distance seeing a different kind of beauty in what you've achieved.
Christina Bradley 13:54
Yeah, that that makes so much sense to me. And that's interesting what you say I wanted to talk to you about this, because you mentioned your perfectionist side. And I think perfectionism can often go hand in hand with creativity and sometimes be completely debilitating in terms of us actually, either starting or finishing our creative work. And I'm interested to know how you deal with your own perfectionism and whether it can be a help or hindrance.
Morna Young 14:23
Oh, I mean, instinctively I would say it's probably both of those things. And perfectionism can stop you from reaching the end of the first page, you know, it can be it can freeze you and it can make you you know, so critical of every single word you write. And to the point that you have to keep going backwards, because you won't let yourself move forward. Yay. And then in that sense, that's when it works against the creativity I think because you can't You don't let yourself progress in any way. And on the flip side of that, I think that my perfectionism makes me strive harder. And, I mean, I'm gonna say that slightly tentatively. But, but, but when I do get to the end of a draft, I am, you know, I always I have that, that side of me that, that, that wants that wants to do better. And that, that kind of once that pushes myself beyond the boundaries that are often those boundaries are ones that I've built, you know, over what I can achieve, but that the perfectionist say sometimes just makes me nudge that a little bit more and see, you know, I, I wonder what would happen if, if I did this, if I tried this...
Christina Bradley 15:55
And really challenge yourself?
Morna Young 15:57
Yeah, and it is a slightly kind of complex, strange mixture, because on one hand, you're you're holding yourself back, but on the other side, you're pushing, you're setting yourself a new thing. Yeah, and, but I remember I remember writing about this once and kind of seeing, you know, I, as an artist, and particularly as a playwright, I, I don't want to write the same play time and time and time again, you know, and there's a, it's possible to make entire careers over writing that the seeing in a different court every single time. And it's really important for me to kind of keep to keep pushing myself forward to to explore new ideas and new forms. And, and just to kind of go what, you know, what, what can I put out there, and I want to keep playing because I think I'm using the word better. Again, slightly hesitantly, but But what can make me a better writer in terms of, if I try something? And I faill, then great, I learned something. And that makes me better does that make sense?
Christina Bradley 17:06
It makes complete sense.
Morna Young 17:07
And I suppose I want to be brave with that, you know?
Christina Bradley 17:10
Yeah, it's how you use it, isn't it? And, and while I suppose perfectionism obviously, can bring out your inner critic, as you say, you know, on the flip side of that, it makes you It makes you push yourself beyond what you perhaps think you're capable of. But then what's interesting is you put yourself in quite a vulnerable position where I imagine then, you know, you're not as comfortable as you would have been before, and then striving for perfection, in even more challenging circumstances. So the inner critic gets louder. I mean, there is that constant battle isn't there?
Morna Young 17:43
Absolutely. And, and it's messy, right? It's really messy. And it's complex. And I mean, you know, on a, on a positive day, I can look at that kind of messy, complex picture and go, that's great. But that's, you know, that's where the excitement lies. And but yet other days, that kind of the clash is much scarier. I'm now set out on some artistic journeys with writing that, you know, a week or not even a week, maybe a day into I've kind sat there thinking what am I doing. There is definitely an easier way that I could have approached this. But yeah, it it's fun to keep challenging yourself. Yeah, um, but yeah, I do think that the complex, messy place is is quite exciting.
Christina Bradley 18:45
I would agree, I would agree. And I'm curious to know that, I mean, I'm assuming because of this perfection side, you have that you do. You do have an inner critic that comes out to play when you're working. And I'm just curious to know how, how you manage that. So it doesn't derail you, and that enables you to actually just keep going and keep moving forward? Do you have any tactics or techniques that you use?
Morna Young 19:11
Um, well, I think, I think I'd be, I'd be lying if I said that. I knew that I absolutely knew how to manage it. Because Because I don't, you know, and I am, I think, like many things, it's a it's a constant journey and one of learning and failing and, and, I mean, it's, I suppose that we all know that our work or in theatre, certainly our work will eventually reach the actual critics. You know, and and that in itself is a is a terrifying a thing that you, you know, that your work is actually going to be out there and it's going to be reviewed in public and, and I suppose that is something that I slightly nudge myself on sometimes. is going actually, somebody else out there is is being paid to criticise your work
Christina Bradley 20:07
That's so helpful. Actually. Yes. So then why would Why would you take the time to do that job?
Morna Young 20:12
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's, yeah, it's finding that balance between, you know, pushing yourself to work, pushing yourself to keep going forward. And yeah, whilst also not stalling yourself, because that critical voice can be can be so, so, so tough. And it can. If it keeps us on the first page, then it's, then it's not our friend. And so yeah, I think it's, um, this is making me think I read a book recently on anxiety, called first we make the beast beautiful.
Christina Bradley 20:54
Okay, I haven't heard of that book
Morna Young 20:58
by Sarah Wilson to do to this book.
Christina Bradley 21:00
No, I haven't heard of it. Tell me.
Morna Young 21:04
Oh, and I absolutely, I loved it. And it's, the entire book is it's not a fix for anxiety in any way. It's very much about going home. How can you look? How can you look at the beast anxiety? And and make a beautiful What what? You know, how, how do you live with anxiety? And how can it benefit you? And again, I, I, like many artists, I can I can also suffer from anxiety. But reading that book, I, I kept looking at the word anxiety and thinking about how much further that that went to, you know, to to perfectionism to the inner critic, all those voices and going, how do you reach out your hand to what you deem as being a negative thing in your life? And go, actually, I keep viewing you as negative? But do you have to be negative can the critical voice be a friend to be a friend in the way that of course, there's always a tipping point for these things? And he can they can always, you know, it's not like, you know, anxiety can be, can be absolutely such a terrifying experience to have. But is there a way, on the good days taming that sort of becomes a friend, you know,
Christina Bradley 22:31
That's such an interesting idea isn't in because we automaticaly, we reject it, right? We, you know, when we do, we sort of said as a negative and working against us, and there's, therefore we sort of resist it, which I think actually can keep us completely stuck. So I love the idea that actually, what if you're able to look at it through a different lens? And if you're most able to embrace it and see the positive or the beauty within it? What would that do? What would happen then? And that's a really fascinating idea, actually.
Morna Young 23:07
Yeah, absolutely. And just like he said, how you can shift that lens to, to not be so afraid anymore? And because fear, again, is something that that stops so many of us doing the things that we want to do, or are experiencing new things. How, how can we, how can we slightly twist that to see, you know, actually, actually, we fear doesn't have to be the worst thing in the world. And anxiety doesn't have to be the worst thing in the world? What if they could just sit with us for a little while and actually, help help us help us?
Christina Bradley 23:47
I think, as you were saying that I was thinking that, actually, there's always this feeling, especially with fear that it's something that needs to be overcome, that you have to move forward, you have to actually battle with it and overcome it. And win and I think, specially when it comes to creative projects, you sort of can never really get to that phase, like there's always an element of fear and trepidation and sort of walking into the unknown, and am I going to be able to do this, and will this work and all the other kind of insecurities that come up? And maybe it's a really futile effort to think I can overcome this. And actually, it's a real misuse of energy to try. And rather than be thinking, how do I overcome this, it is about how do I embrace this and let this almost fuel my work?
Morna Young 24:32
Absolutely. And there's, there's a level of vulnerability within that as well, you know, to be able to say, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna sit with fear for a while. Kind of means taking your guard down a wee bit. You know, and, and that that is quite exposing. And I think for many of us, part of the reason we shy away from creativity is because it can seem exposing
Christina Bradley 25:00
Yeah, so I was gonna ask you when it comes to your creative work, where does fear sort of manifest? Like, where do you experience fear the most?
Morna Young 25:09
Every day, every minute?
Every evening!
Christina Bradley 25:13
This is what I'm talking about, it's a futile exercise trying to overcome it?
Morna Young 25:17
Yeah, um, I don't know. I mean, I, I think I think I'm, I think I'm afraid of lots of things, everything. And I think I just work really hard to try not to let that fear tackle me. You know that that? And maybe like we were just talking about that kind of how can you let something just kind of sit beside you? I think I work really hard to kind of, to, to let fear to acknowledge that fear and to say, Actually, I am I'm scared of a lot of things. The years I worked as an actor on going on stage. I, I will never ever forget those moments of standing next to the curtain. I'm about to start. Because you can hear the audience and you can hear the kind of a rustle in of like, sweetie wrappers.
Christina Bradley 26:20
And then the anticpation of that stepping out in front into the light.
Morna Young 26:25
And it's always the anticipation though, because actually, once you get out there, your your survival instinct, I think just kicks in and you've got a job to do.
Christina Bradley 26:32
Yeah, and you're not thinking about that anymore.
Morna Young 26:35
Yep, yep. But it's in that, you know, that minute or so before you go on stage, that the fear is at its worst. And, you know, I don't think that ever that as an actor, I don't think that ever leaves you that little bit of time before the curtain. But once you get on stage that, you know, on, you go on. And I think I think about that a lot in everyday life as well. And everything I'm scared of I always I always kind of go is, you know, do I just need to step past the curtain. But will I be okay, once I once I get on the stage? And and, you know, I I can't always tell when my fear is going to when it's going to manifest that the most. I've never been particularly good at predicting when I'll stall. You know, I often. Sometimes I think to myself, Oh, I you know I can? There's this very short thing I have to write for example. And it'll be fine. And that's when the fear will come not not on the great big giant project. But on something I hadn't detected. Yeah. And so that's always an interesting process for me to kind of take take a little bit time and to go, Oh, what? Is it a reason why it comes out in this disguise or in this situation? And again, I don't I don't have the answers for that. I'm, I'm constantly curious. And I would love to have have an answer over over where and when that that comes. But yeah,
Christina Bradley 28:11
Well, it's a really it is a really fascinating subject. And going back to Big Magic, I think that Elizabeth Gilbert talks about that fear is the constant companion when it comes to creativity. And she likens it to being in a car and going on a road trip. And I think creativity and curiosity, get the front seat. I've totally got this wrong, but that's the idea of it. But fear gets to come along on the journey but sits in the back and doesn't get any voice and isn't allowed to play with the controls and definitely doesn't get to choose the direction.
Morna Young 28:41
Yeah, yeah, she's very good, isn't she?
Christina Bradley 28:44
She's absolutely brilliant. I love her.
Morna Young 28:46
I read that book with that kind of the smile on your face. That's that knowing but also kind of, Oh, no. I, that is truth in that I will never get rid of fear. You know, she's a, she's so spot on in her observations.
Christina Bradley 29:06
And she's very wise, she really is. I would love to have a chat with you about the idea of play and play as it relates to creativity. Because I think for me, they kind of go hand in hand. And I think as adults we have we really struggle with play. I think we don't we've forgotten how to play. Basically, we don't give ourselves permission to play. And we don't actually know how to reconnect to that idea of play. And I think it's really it's very important for creativity, in my mind anyway, to be able to access your ability to play. And I'm wondering whether you can speak to that a little bit and tell me your thoughts on the whole subject of play, whether you think it's an important part of the creative process.
Morna Young 30:01
Absolutely yes, it is
Christina Bradley 30:04
Good, and I pleased you agree on that otherwise that wouldv'e been tricky, we would have taken this in a compltely different direction.
Morna Young 30:10
And I think it's so fascinating because, you know, we, we all play as kids, there's, it's just part of who we are. And, you know, we, we, we meet your friends and we we make up, we make up games and songs and rains and, and, you know, you give her our dolls and names and act out scenes and, and we dress up and I think that's just such a big part of who we are when we're when we're young. And that's not exclusive in any way. You know, it's it's not that, that this child is gifted with this ability to do it. It's it's not we're all we're all playful when we're children. And at some point, at some point that shifted out of us for some reason, or, or we're encouraged to let it go. Because because we need to, you know, we need to grow up, and we need to think about the more serious things in life and, and I said that with an eye roll, which I'm aware that you can't see, the more serious things in life. And I remember being in school and, and telling, telling the head teacher that I for my highers, which are the equivalent of a level in Scotland, in that I wanted to do music, drama, art and design as three of my six subjects. And that came with the response of, you know, you know, the stern face and the kind of, you know, why why would you do that you're gonna bright girl, why? Why would you take these subjects? And because they're because they're, because they're soft, and they're playful. And for some reason, we decided that that's a bad thing as you get older. And, and, you know, it, it's really in recent years that this word play, I suppose this comeback to me again. And I suppose I, as an artist, I'm, I'm lucky that that in many ways, play kind of east part of my life, when I was working as an actor for you know, I still act occasionally. But there was a period of about eight years or so that I was mainly working as an actor, and play as part of the rehearsal room. Yes, we, you know, and we start with these playful games, and we, and we create this kind of safe space, where characters are born and where we, where we talk about the story. And, and that's very much about building trust within a rom, it's about collaborating. And, you know, I think it's one of the reasons why people say that actors can probably go into any other job in the world and be okay. And I think it's because they have that openness to play. And because the, the play part is in the moment, and which slightly taps us into mindfulness as well. I think. Yeah, actors are, are fantastic at just being there in the moment playing and responding. Yeah.
Christina Bradley 33:22
And well, this is what made me think about come on to the subject of play was when you said about, sort of, we were talking about fear and stepping from behind the curtain onto the stage, and then you're in the moment. And then of course, all the fear goes away. And I think being in a state of play, you have to be 100%, present, and in the moment. Otherwise, play doesn't really work. That's not the sort of the mechanics of it.
Morna Young 33:47
Yeah. And I think that's something that for me in, in recent years, that I've perhaps forgotten a little bit, that, you know, as a writer, I, my career's become busier over the last few years, which I'm incredibly thankful for. And, and, you know, but the, the realistic side of that is, the busier you are as a writer, the more time that you're at your desk, you know, and, and that's, that's, that's just you, you have these pieces to write. And actually, it really has taken me up into lockdown to realise how much that I've taken that space for playing out of my life. And it's such a thin line, I think, because, I mean, I know we were we might tap on this tap into this later but, but, you know, for for the theatre industry, lockdown came and the entire industry shut down. You know, so it was a there was suddenly there's this very empty space for practitioners around the country. But for me that on the kind of flip side of it, I realised that within that space, there was also, there was also room for me for the first time in a long time to start to kind of find playfulness again.
Christina Bradley 35:16
I love that so much. I know let's let's talk about your journey of lockdown your creative journey, because that's how I came to find out about your work Morna because you wrote a piece on, on your experience in lockdown and how it really forced you to review I suppose your creativity and really lean into that and start exploring your creative self. I mean, I think you've talked about it as nurturing your creative core, which is so important. And can you just can you just talk us through what what that whole process look like for you?
Morna Young 35:47
The process of writing the article?
Christina Bradley 35:50
No, the actual of lock thing? No, no.
Morna Young 35:54
Um, yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, for, like, most of us, our lockdown came completely out of the blue, although it probably shouldn't have given, you know, what was happening? Yeah, yeah, I was, I was working in California at the time for a theatre company. And we were playing every day, you know, we were we were making this it's quite a serious piece of theatre, in many ways. It's about gun crime in the US. I was talking to this young group of amazing, amazing actors in, in California, but in the way that, that they brought such joy to the room, and I think it's those beautiful moments where you can take a subject and take an issue that is incredibly serious, and, and affecting, and actually use creativity to approach it in a slightly different way. So even though, you know, we were talking about guns and death, and these awful things, there was such a feeling of, of joy and togetherness in that rehearsal room. And so yeah, that's where that's what I was When, when, you know, we lock down started the first rumour started, and, and kind of everything kicked off after that there was the the flights from the US, we're all pulled. And we did a kind of, you know, quick, quick dash, back to back to Scotland. And, yeah, then, you know, I think it was less than a week or so later, everything shut down. And immediately, alongside that came phone call after phone call after phone call from different theatre companies and organisations, for me saying,
Christina Bradley 37:39
Everything's cancelled,
Morna Young 37:41
This production is cancelled this. And, you know, so there was the initial shock of that, that, you know, your diet, your diet he previously was, you know, is bursting with all these beats on things. And, and, I mean, I was due to have five productions open this year, which was wild.
Christina Bradley 38:00
Oh, my goodness. That's disappointing, though, isn't it?
Morna Young 38:06
Absolutely. am and then kind of crossing through everything in? But I suppose like, like, always, am you there's always the initial shock of something. And then there's a moment that you kind of have to stop and look at your look at the pieces and look what's around you and kind of go, Okay, what what am I going to do? I'm going to do? What not what. And, you know, I think all of us because our circumstances were so different. During lockdown, everyone has dealt with things in their, in their own way. And for me, I, I saw this gap in there, and realised that I think he used the words earlier that I just didn't, I needed to nourish myself for a while. And particularly with this kind of creative madness. I hadn't quite realised how, how creatively drained I was either. So I mean, it's not that, you know, this would have been a fantastic, you know, busy, busy year for me. And I'm not quite sure what you know, because we're now on this in this different path. It's hard to imagine how that would have played out. But it's only once the diary was clear that actually, I kind of realised how I dreamed I felt by everything. You know,
Christina Bradley 39:25
Well sometimes you need that pause, don't you just otherwise, you just you run with it, and you keep going and you keep going. And it's only when you stop it and sort of take stock that you go, actually I am I am spent like I am completely, completely done. And you almost need that sort of imposed point where it's like no more. So in response to that to discovering that, actually, you were just needing a break. What did you What did you do next?
Morna Young 39:49
So, I mean, the big thing for me was kind of the realisation that I you know, I teach creative writing up You know, and I, and I constantly tell young writers that they need to make space for creativity in their life. And I had this, I had this dawning moment over realising how that I that I haven't been doing that yet. And you know, those moments that you suddenly look at yourself and think I, oops.
Christina Bradley 40:23
I know this and i'm not doing this for myself.
Morna Young 40:26
I am not. Yeah, I don't, I don't do that anymore. And it's something that I'm so passionate about when I'm teaching because I genuinely, I totally think, you know, staring into our phones all day, and I'm rushing around like, that's not, that's not where, creative ideas come from, it's just, it's just not
Christina Bradley 40:48
I've just got a quote that you said, which was talking to this. And he talked about creativity, meeting space, and then emerging writers should turn off their phones and embrace boredom. So that's interesting. Why is that so important?
Morna Young 41:01
I mean, I think the the embrace boredom part is because when we're bored tends to be when we start when our minds kind of start to drift. Mm hmm. And we, and we Daydream. And I mean, I've always been a little bit obsessed with with dreams, and I have this strange thing. And which, quite quite often, when I'm when I'm creating something, I will think about it when I'm going to sleep. And quite often I'll, I'll Dream, dream that the next bit of the play.
Christina Bradley 41:32
That's quite amazing,
Morna Young 41:34
Which is really strange. And I keep a notebook next to my next to my bed. I love like, I love love dreams. I am, I'm a big fan of kind of going, you know, for what is our subconscious trying to tell us during a dream? And I think if the subconscious is hard at work during my playwriting, then it's hard at work doing when I'm asleep, as well. Sure.
Christina Bradley 41:59
Of course, it makes total sense, doesn't it?
Morna Young 42:01
Yeah, yeah. So I think embracing boredom opens up that little bit of your, of your head to, to let you Daydream, yeah, if you if you sit and stare at a blank white wall for long enough, you're, you're not actually just going to sit and stare at the wall, you're gonna,
Christina Bradley 42:18
Something's going to come to you
Morna Young 42:20
Something is going to open up. And, and I think this is why we so often talk about, you know, going into nature and, and walking as a, as a cure in some ways, when when you're, when you're a bit creatively frazzled or burnt out. I think it's that space, that I mean, you're again, you're, you're doing something but you're but your mind is your mind is open, and it's your, yep, it's a space for your brain to begin to kind of just open up and see what strangely but also, the big thing for me, I think, is daydreaming. I think that's the space where, where things can start to happen. And I just watched an episode of a TV show recently, that had two characters that were talking about the fact that in our modern day lives in about five minutes, we see more images, then, you know, our great ancestors would have seen in their lifetime, and, and that I think it's there's so much truth in that we are bombarded constantly with with knowledge and images. And, and I forget that sometimes as well, that, you know, when I open my eyes, when I get up in the morning, and I and I look at my phone, I'm I'm seeing immediate news from the USA from Australia, from Japan from around the world. And, and you know, that it's political news, and it's news about wars. And right now, it's covid 19 that there's, there's so much information for our brains to process and think about. And I, I think, you know, our filling. We're filling our minds. And I don't I think there's something in that over that stating that staring at the blank wall or going for the walk that actually just takes you away from that a little bit, you know, that there's there's so much in the world to worry about. There's, there's so much for us to stress about. And, and actually, I don't think we we can worry and stress about these things for you know, 24 seven, I don't think it's healthy. And so yeah, stepping away and opening up your mind to to daydream a little bit, I think is I think there's something....
Christina Bradley 44:41
Yeah, I agree. I think there's something in that. And I think when your mind is so full, it isn't possible to leave the room for creative ideas to flourish. I just don't think it's I just don't think they can go hand in hand. I think you have to try and find that space. And boredom. I hadn't heard it put like that, but that's a That's a really good way of, of creating that space, I suppose.
Morna Young 45:05
Yeah, I think I think it's stepping, stepping away from the buisiness of the world. And just letting your body and mind breath a little bit making that space for, for, for you. And I think I think that's the thing because So, you know, creativity, the reason why I think it's scary for so many people is because it comes from inside us. You know, and it's, it's, it's a, it's a personal thing as well. And I think it can be quite, I think it can be quite terrifying to ask, you know, what stories do I have to tell inside me? And but yeah, we, there's so much other news in the world that unless you make space to listen to those stories inside you, then then the lid will always be on that.
Christina Bradley 46:02
Love that? Yeah, that's, that's really powerful. I'd like to know more about the, during lockdown how you actually did. You know, obviously, you're talking a lot about the mind and body connection. But I know you sort of went on a creative journey during lockdown, to really re engage with that creative part of yourself. And I'm just wondering, what, what are the things that you did to sort of as part of this creative mission?
Morna Young 46:29
Um, the first thing I did, in the beginning, was I tracked my copy of The Artists Way by Julia Cameron
Christina Bradley 46:40
Such a good book, by the way, if people are interested in creativity, which I assume you are, because you're listening to this podcast, if you haven't read The Artists way by Julia Cameron, it is absolutely amazing. And a must read, I would say,
Morna Young 46:51
it really is the Bible of creativity, isn't it? It's the book that there's fear. Although surprisingly, I mean, I feel like I know a lot of people who start it. And then there's, there's a point, I think around about a week eight or so that people seem to drop out a little bit. And I think it's just that commitment
Christina Bradley 47:12
It's 12 week course, basically, that you have to follow. And I think yeah, exactly in about week eight, it's like, Oh, I can't be bothered with this anymore. And you start to lose faith. But I think she's got some really great exercises. Well, you're going to come onto this, aren't you? I think I know where this is going.
Morna Young 47:28
Yeah, so I, I started The Artists Way again, and I mean that the main thing I'll talk about is the morning pages, which is something that I used to do. And then again, in the buisiness, it got swept to one side. And so the morning pages sound that exactly as it sounds, you you wake up great. And you don't have to write anything that's that's good. Or anything that's poetic, it's just you write whatever comes out is a stream of consciousness. Yeah. And I mean, I'd, I'd forgotten how therapeutic it is. They're amazing. It's, it's amazing. I just had to dump out all the absolute nonsense that exists. And
Christina Bradley 48:13
it's amazing to realise how much nonsense does exist in your head? It's staggering. And because the whole point of these pages is you're, you're not meant to censor yourself. So as Morna says, it's just about letting whatever comes out on the page, just land there and not judging it and just continue writing. But it is quite staggering. What does land on that page?
Morna Young 48:34
Yep. And you do discover things that have been niggling you that you that you kind of go out and realise that that was a, that was the thing. But I think yeah, there's, there's this beautiful therapy involved in just emptying and doing this great big brain dump onto the page that kind of takes out your head, puts it on the paper, and then it can go back in the drawer. There's something so beautiful about just cleaning your head and starting the day, minus that junk.
Christina Bradley 49:06
Yeah, absolutely. Also, going back to what you were just saying about creating space within your head, for creativity to exist, I feel like this exercise is so great, because it sort of takes care of that by removing all of that junk, it alleviates all of that from your mind. So you are left with this space, which is a bit more neutral. To create from.
Morna Young 49:27
Absolutely and and as we said earlier, you know, most of us first thing in the morning we'd reach at our phone and we take in a bunch of new information. There's something kind of joyous about waking up and and getting rid of some information from your from your brain. And it's it's a I mean, it's quite a small thing three pages sounds a lot but it's actually not know if you just kind of let your hand do what it wants to do and scroll across the pages. And Julia Cameron says you know in the book, it's okay to write. I don't know what to write. I don't Know what to write, you know if you are stuck.
Christina Bradley 50:03
But eventually something will come to you.
Morna Young 50:07
yeah.
Christina Bradley 50:08
It's such a great creative exercise. It really is. I mean, I do every day and have done for the last couple of years. And I just, I have periods where I don't do it. And then I go back to it. And I say, Why did I stop? Because it is just so powerful. It's really, really important.
Morna Young 50:24
It's a really, I think, if there's, if we're looking for, you know, what, what's the one thing that you can do? First thing when you wake up in the morning to get your creativity going at? That's where I'd put my money. You know, a little bit of housekeeping of your head.
Christina Bradley 50:43
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. all morning therapy. And, and then as part of lock down you, you started with that? And then where did you go after that?
Morna Young 50:52
So I'm, I made a list of, of things that I that I used to really enjoy doing kind of, you know, more playful activities. And, and the oddest thing about it was there was nothing on the list - you know, it wasn't like, my list was bungee jumping and skiing. You know, it was a really simple little list. And it was things like baking, and running, and reading. And these are all things that in principle, I really enjoy. And not, you know, none of them were expensive. None of them were, you know, it really surprised me actually, to write these things down and go, Why don't I do any of these things? Why don't know. And so yeah, I went on this mission, over trying to work my way through through this simple little list. And, and it was this strangely joyous experience. And this and one we're, like, I feel really strange as somebody saying, you know, I, the first time I baked, I feel like I have this kind of out of body experience in some ways, which shouldn't be the case. You know, I I was baking some scones, you know, there's nothing revolutionary. But, but for me could have taken that time and, and, and weighing out ingredients. And you know, there's like a great moment when you stick your hands and and you feel the flour and the dough. And I think that the beautiful thing about baking that I discovered along the way, and always having something at the end of it. And I don't know if that particularly spoke to me or someone who you know, in with theatre, I write a play. And then there's a stage
Christina Bradley 52:43
Yeah, you've got a tangible end result.
Morna Young 52:44
Yeah. So there's something that I really enjoyed the process over putting in this bit of effort to make to make scones to make a cake. And at the other side, there was something there. And it really helped as well, that there's something there actually, to start with. this wasn't the case. but But the thing at the end of it was was really tasty,
Christina Bradley 53:05
Delicious. Well that's a result?
Morna Young 53:09
I think I mean, I have I've definitely got better at speaking. No,
Christina Bradley 53:14
I think I think so many people during lockdown. That's exactly what they did. But it's interesting, because I think a lot of people would be like, well, how is that a creative sort of activity? Or how does that relate to creativity? And what's your experience there? What was it about that, that you feel links back to sort of reconnecting with your creativity and your creative self?
Morna Young 53:34
I mean, I think I think I would launch back onto that word play again. And, and it makes me think about, you know, so many of my, my friends who have young children baking is one of the activities that the that they do with their younger children all the time. It's a it's a fun, playful thing that they do. And, you know, it's never, it's never really about the end product. Like none of No, no one's really trying to do that, to me, you know, the most exquisite three tiered cake.
Christina Bradley 54:04
It's, it's about the process and the process.
Morna Young 54:07
And I think that's the other thing when when I made when I made my first when I baked for the first time there and I made the scones, I mean, they didn't, they didn't look, they don't look great, there were there were, you know, burnt and misshapen and, and all those things. And that kind of just didn't really matter. Because, like even though I really enjoyed seeing this tangible thing in front of me, actually, the the fun bit was the making and it was throwing fluid around. And it was, you know, letting myself be in that moment of, of doing something that was quite contained. I remember when I first started reading about mindfulness and the reading about the raison trick, you know, the reason trek query.
Christina Bradley 54:56
I'm not sure I do. Go and tell me.
Morna Young 54:58
It's about it's about mindful eating. the raison. So yeah, okay, you look at you look at the raison you smell the raison you do taste the raison and it's, you know, it's meant to be about how this tiny simple little thing the raison and how how you can actually be in in that moment and I think it's called like that the raison experience
Christina Bradley 55:21
Experiencing that raIson fully, right? That's the idea.
Morna Young 55:23
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's such a tiny thing. And I felt a little bit like I was having the raIson experience whilst baking these scones. Initially, that, you know, it, there such a tiny, insignificant thing. You know, but I, I felt this, I just felt a joy that I hadn't experienced for a long time. And, I mean, I say that as somebody that, you know, creativity is my job. It's my, it's my, it's my profession, I would say it's my life. And yet, somehow, at the start of lockdown, I'm standing in this kitchen going, I haven't felt this creative in years.
Christina Bradley 56:04
That's so fascinating, isn't it?
Morna Young 56:06
How is that possible? Yeah. And I I think the word is play, I think I let myself, I gave myself permission to play again. Yeah.
Christina Bradley 56:16
And I just think that is so important. And also, there was something else that I got from that article that you wrote, and you said, Give yourself permission to be bad at something. And I think that that's so key, because we are so driven by results and outcomes and our own expectations on ourselves. And I think sometimes when you give yourself that permission to, to play, but also to let go of the outcome, you can really just lose yourself in the activity in a way that is like the raisin experience, you know, you you are fully present in that moment. Which I think is is so important.
Morna Young 56:53
Yeah. And I can be I mean, I can be really bad at that. That's the perfectionist side kicking in. And it's something that I'm working on more. And again, this is why something like backing has been such a good experience for me, is that idea of going. You know, I, I'm a writer by trade, but I also can I also work as an actor, I work as a musician, quite often, all, you know, the creative elements of my life have led, have gone on to be professional. And so there's, I think there's, there's that slight danger zone in my brain sometimes that that, that these creative activities that I find really fun that I immediately associate them with work. But I think something like like baking for me, I'm never going to be a professional Baker
Christina Bradley 57:47
No, exactly. So there's just no, there's no pressure, you can just let go.
Morna Young 57:51
Yeah. So I think there's also there's something in identifying what it is, you know, I think that's going to be different for everyone, because somebody else might find, you know, sitting down and writing a short story about a different animal every single night that might that might bring the play and the joy to that person. Absolutely. But I think often because writing is so associated with with what I do my my, my money work. Yeah, I need something very different from that, actually as as my real play time. Yeah. And so yeah, I think that was a bit of a discovery for me. And everything that kind of took me out of my of my writing headspace. What was really, really beneficial.
Christina Bradley 58:39
I love that. And I love that you just started with with What does pleasure look like and making that list and then just working your way through it. So we're going to wrap up now, but I just want to ask you this question. As we're talking about baking, if creativity was a cake, what ingredients would you say? It's made up of?
Morna Young 58:57
Oh, my goodness, that is a question. I know.
Christina Bradley 59:00
And I wrote it down earlier. And I was like, I'm probably not going to say it. But I'm just interested to know people's thoughts. And then as we were talking about baking, I was like I'm going for I'm asking that question, but it might be a difficult one to answer. I'm not sure but see how you go.
Morna Young 59:13
Why am I mean, I think he would still we will still start with lots of flour, just so we can make a bit of a mess. But then I asked what would you add to it? And I want it.
Christina Bradley 59:27
You said before you mentioned about curiosity
I want to throw in.Yeah, I want to throw in words like like curiosity, like joy, like magic. And but I suppose it's Yeah, I suppose everyone's cake is going to be unique to themselves. So you know, I think yeah, maybe one person needs some more of a more of their cake to be full of, you know, knitting and writing. And that's where the I will go on top. I feel like I'm doing a terrible job with the analogy.
I know, it's a really tricky question. But I think I think that's it. I think it's made up of the joy, the magic, the play the curiosity, I would probably throw in there, you know, imagination. Mix that up into, into the ingredients. But I think to your point, you know, it is different things for different people. The question I wanted to ask you, Morna, and I ask all of my guests at the very end, what does living a creative life mean to you?
Morna Young 1:00:33
I think that living a creative life is about tuning into and tuning into yourself. I think living a creative life is about making space. And I think a creative life is finding magic and joy in a world that can sometimes be lacking magic and joy.
Christina Bradley 1:01:04
Oh, that was the perfect answer. That was maybe it was a better question than the cake question, but that that was a spot on arts. Right. I totally agree with all of that. I think that's that's everything.
Morna Young 1:01:16
I as you mentioned the cake. The cake question there, it reminded me, I was in a meeting last week, actually. And we were talking about a script project. And they'd sent with with a cake in that example, they'd said, You know, I think we have all the ingredients for a fantastic cake. But we also have some ingredients in there that would make you know a curry and a pad tie though we had too many ingredients in our in our cake.
Christina Bradley 1:01:49
Anything goes right. No rules. Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you Manas. So much. This is I just loved every second of this conversation is just been fabulous. And I hope all of you listeners have really enjoyed this conversation as well. So thank you so much, and hopefully we'll get to do this again at some point.
Morna Young 1:02:06
Thank you so much, Christina. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you.
Christina Bradley 1:02:09
Thank you, Morna.