Christina Bradley 0:01
Hello, Selina
Selina Barker 0:02
Hello
Christina Bradley 0:04
Hello. Hello. Welcome to the creativity candidates podcast.
Selina Barker 0:07
Oh, it's such an honour to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Christina Bradley 0:11
Oh, I'm so thrilled to have you here. So we're just going to dive in, because we've got so much to talk about. And there's so much that I just want to pick your brains on, starting with your own relationship to creativity. Now I know it can be a fluctuating thing. So I'm really interested to know, right now in your life, what your relationship to creativity looks like.
Selina Barker 0:32
Today, what is the perfect time to be asking me, because my creativity, the artist in me has really been given and I deliberately gave her I think there's about a year ago, maybe two years ago, I was just like, it's time for the artist in me to really have her time to shine and play and be out in the world and be just have her moment. And I don't know if I set this intention, as I knew opportunities are opening up to do that. But since then, and over the past year or more, I have been I just my audible series, the career change coach just came out, which is very exciting. That was an incredible creative process with a production team, where you hear me coaching people, and then we send them off to do a task in the middle. And so that's that whole journey. But that was a wonderful creative process, slightly nerve racking being recorded as I was coaching people. And then I got the opportunity to write a book, Burntout; The Exhausted Person's Guide to Thriving in a Fast Paced World. And I have been wanting to write a book since the beginning of time. Since I began doing this work, which I've been doing for over a decade, that almost 14 years now helping people to create a life and a career that they love. I've always wanted to write a book, I started writing a blog such a long time ago. I mean, I started my first blog was for career shifters, which was a company that I co founded 14 years ago. And but then I started writing my own blog called made the moment living a creative life from the heart, I think, was the tagline. And I wrote that for about three years. Every Tuesday, I called my Juicy Tuesday newsletter, and I wrote and I really wrote from the heart, I wrote through what I was going through my creative process in terms of designing my life, like really consciously creating my life, recognising that I was the artist of my own life. That's a whole story that that kind of happened from having quite big, personal meltdown, coming out of a sort of destructive relationship. And sort of feeling like I was at right at rock bottom and going, Okay, I'm starting again, after after a fashion because at first I was like, I'm done. But like, I don't want to keep a cut. I think I'm done. I think I've worn myself out the ultimate burnout. And from that point, I was just like, hang on, this is the opportunity to start again, like this is the ultimate fresh canvas. And from that point, I've really started recognising the power that I had to create my life. Obviously, we don't have full control. But it was that's how my journey began of designing a life designing my life. I've just gone. Where have I gone.
Christina Bradley 3:14
No, do you know what it's brilliant, because actually, they're all the things I want to talk about, I want to go back to the book and start there. But I absolutely want to talk about this whole idea, which you've just introduced beautifully about, actually, you know, creating, and designing a life, I think so often we do creativity, we don't necessarily, you know, think of creating our life is being a creative project. It's like the ultimate in creation really. And you are obviously the I mean, that's, that's what you do. That's what you live by. And that's that's exactly how you've kind of created your own life and your work.
Selina Barker 3:51
Absolutely.
Christina Bradley 3:52
I want to go back to that. But first, I would love to talk about the book and start there.
Selina Barker 3:56
Okay.
Christina Bradley 4:00
So you've just written this book? How long did it take you to write? Yes, so they gave me three months. My first book, also interesting. I mean, what was the challenge writing this book is that my, my primary expertise is not guiding people through out of burnout. I've worked a lot with people who come to me when they're burnt out because I've been offering career change coaching for over a decade. So I am very used to people coming to me burnt out. But really might like, the books I'm writing next are going to be on life design and career change. So book on burnout really was both me obviously writing a book, but first, actually, to going on a journey to figure out what, what people needed to do. How could I create a book that would really help people to recover from burnout and then learn to thrive, so that they no longer were in this kind of pattern. And of burning out thinking, you know, the habits that and the ways of living the ways, particularly of working that habits burning out. So they gave me three months then a huge global pandemic hit just as I was about to get into the meat of writing this book. So things slowed down a little because apart from anything else, I had a four year old in the house, no, but I have to say, my son, my partner, he also works for himself, so we're able to kind of choose our timetables a bit. So he took the lion's share of the homeschooling I say, in inverted commas. My son's four, there wasn't a lot of homeschooling going on, but looking after our son, so I had between 11 and five, I think it was every day to just go into my writing cave
Christina Bradley 5:55
Wow, did you write from 11 till five?
Selina Barker 5:57
No, no.
Christina Bradley 5:58
Okay, that makes me feel better. I would be intimidated by that kind of timeline.
Selina Barker 6:03
No, no. No, well, I say. So I'm trying to remember at first I was trying, I didn't know because I'd never written a book before. So I thought, now I assumed, yes, you're supposed to do I should be able to get six hours each day out. Um, and then then someone said to you, apparently, you're not, you're not really supposed to do more than three hours of writing in a day. Well you know this.
Christina Bradley 6:28
I also love how someone has come up with a rule. And that's what you're meant to do.
Selina Barker 6:30
I know. But like, all different, don't put that kind of pressure on yourself to do more. But as I as I went through, really getting to understand how to manage my energy, mental, emotional and physical, which was part of the book, and physical activity, being one of the most important things you can do to renew refresh your energy, I then started doing like a 25 minute hit workout in the middle of the day, and then that re energise myself, and then I could go back to it. So I can't To be honest, it's all a bit of a blur. I couldn't tell you how many hours a day. And obviously, some days, I'm on a roll, and other days, I'm on the floor going, can't do it. Which actually, you know, people had said to me, I'd see other coaches writing books as like, this does not look like fun. I mean, this looks horrific. And they would tell me, it was horrific, like it was, it is a labour, you know, it is as it's, it's painful. I have to say, though, I loved it, for the most part, particularly the first part, I loved it, and I would get up in the mornings, I'd be writing everything. I never want this to end, I want to write more, I want to write more books. I love this. I really, really, really loved it. And then as you start getting into the part where you're editing, and you're honing, and you're crafting, and you're. And then I was just like, I did have one massive meltdown moment where I was, like I said to my partner in tears, I'm going to have to give them their money back. And I reached out to Emma Gannon, who's a friend of mine and a brilliant writer, and she's written many best selling books. And, and I said, are the meltdowns normal. And she said, Oh, they're not just normal, that they're a good sign. They're a sign that things are like coming together. And I was like, Okay, well, if she says it's fine. And then so I had about three weeks of such shitty what I call, as you know, I call that inner critic, the shitty committee, a real Attack of the shitty committee. It was vile, I hadn't experienced that level of self hatred from myself, for years, like I am very good these days at self love and being kind to myself, and sometimes I'm a bit harsh. I'm a bit of a harsh taskmaster, like, I'll push myself, but the levels of self loathing and disgust and hatred of myself. I was like, I didn't know how to get I don't know how to get out of this is all it was. And I think...
Christina Bradley 9:17
Sorry, I was just gonna I was just gonna, do you think that's in relation to how much it meant to you?
Selina Barker 9:25
Do you know? Do you know what at the time obviously, I couldn't see anyone but I have got a neighbour who is a teacher and she she would come and sit on our, like front garden wall, we'd have cups of tea and she'd bring her tea and I'd bring my tea, serious social distancing at that time, and I remember her saying to me, you know what she says when you're at that stage of editing, and therefore you have to be really analysing and really like being critical.
Christina Bradley 9:58
Yeah.
Selina Barker 9:58
That and it depends where you are for a woman, in your menstrual cycle where you're on your menstrual cycle, beware doing that when you know, you're about to get your period, or when that sort of super hyper critical part comes out the double whammy, which I think at one point, it might have been that, but she said, it makes sense that that's going to invite a very shitty committee.
Christina Bradley 10:21
Yeah, because that's literally what you're having to do...
Selina Barker 10:27
So it's fascinating. So it was fascinating understanding that but I have to say, having a shitty committee that was that strong and that vile and knows exactly where to like punch you in the guts. It knows it knows the bits that how to wound you. Was it because it was so important to me? I guess so. But it was also because I was the first time I've ever written anything. And I had to really prove myself. I was just like, I think I can write a book. But I never have. So there's always a chance that I can't.
Christina Bradley 11:01
And I can't write.
Selina Barker 11:03
Oh, my God, and the fear of that was crippling.
Christina Bradley 11:08
Yeah. Do you know what, although, I'm sorry that that happened. And I can really, firstly, I can really relate to that. And I'm also just so pleased to hear you talking about that. Because I think that that's, that is the messy middle of the creative process that we talk about but people a are so sort of put off by they don't actually complete something.
Selina Barker 11:25
Yeah,
Christina Bradley 11:25
And b, they don't recognise it as being a kind of a part of that you've just can't escape of the creative process that just happens, which is what Emma Gannon had said, right?
Selina Barker 11:35
Yes
Christina Bradley 11:36
It's just part of the course. But I think so many people sort of look at their own creative process and, and compare that to somebody else's creative outcome and their products. And don't realise that everybody goes through this, this really quite hideous, sort of downturn, somewhere in the middle that is just enough to make you go. I just want to walk away from this. I've got no talent, I can't bear it. I'm letting myself down.
Selina Barker 11:59
Do you know what it's so interesting? Because when I've given birth once was enough to a human being out of my body. And there is a stage, just like, just as you're about to get to the point where you're ready to push the baby out? Where they prepare you for this and your birthing classes. And they say, there will be a point where you will suddenly have often when the woman goes, I need to go, I'm done. I'm not doing this. I'm out. I need to go home now. I'm done. I'm not doing it. And that's when you're like, Okay, it's it's literally a weird emotional response to your body being ready to go into the final stage of birth. And I was like, That's weird. And literally then as other friends of mine who were pregnant ahead of me, were giving birth, they were like, one of them was just like, yep, she was ready to like, grab her bags, and like, be out of that room. And I remember, in my own birthing process, suddenly going, I can't do it. And this horrifying chorus of people because my eyes closed for most of it. And they were like, hundreds of them in there. They suddenly went Yes, you can, like, pleases. Yeah. But I remembered being like, this is this is not dissimilar. You know, I'm really into, like the creative process, birthing humans, birthing ideas, birthing books, birthing businesses, it's, I think it's a very similar journey. One is very physical, obviously, well, actually, all of them are physical in a way. But that moment, just as you're about to get to the final stretch, where you go, have you feel in your every cell in your body, you can't do any want to give up? Yeah, it's I think it does. I think it happens at a similar stage.
Christina Bradley 13:48
I think it does. And I've actually read, I'm trying to think who it is that talks about this. But how when we see the finish line, that is the point that we are most likely to self sabotage.
Selina Barker 14:00
So interesting
Christina Bradley 14:02
And there is an actual piece, and it's going to come to me, right in the show notes. But it's really fascinating that there is this actual fact that when we get to Steven pressfield, is who it is. And he talks about the fact that, you know, we are most vulnerable when we are really close to finishing, and that's when we're likely to throw in the towel and walk away from it.
Selina Barker 14:21
Isn't that crazy
Christina Bradley 14:26
And it is to have come that far through it to sort of potentially
Selina Barker 14:30
I mean, I I have to say at the point where I was freaking out, I was nowhere near finishing the book, like the book that we you will eventually see in April of next year, and read yet and is very different to the book that I was at at that stage. And I can't even remember what point it was, but it was definitely you know what, my partner at the time said he was just like I know why this is the hardest part. I'm a very messy person. Like if I could pan out right now and show you the chaos that I'm sitting in, we're also half doing up our house. But anyway, that's an excuse but I do generally I'm just a messy person. And I hate tidying up and sorting and organising hate it. There's like, you know, people who like get a real kick out of being Marie Kondo knowing I'm not that person, I will never be that person. And he was like, you've got to the point in the book now where you've written loads and loads and loads really juicy, but you now need to start sorting and organising it, you need to bring order. This is where it's interesting. So I love the play part creating without limits, yes. But as soon as and this is why I thought the book would be a challenge as soon as I have to start honing it, really piecing it together, really getting into the nitty gritty in the detail,
Christina Bradley 15:53
And maybe applying some of the actual craft and the parameter storytelling requires.
Selina Barker 15:56
God, that is not my bag. I tell you what the number of times I thought I should, why don't I just contact Christina? I thought contacting you from the very beginning. But no, I was like...
Christina Bradley 16:09
You didn't need to, you did it, you were perfect. It's so fascinating that was the bit that tripped you up. And the bit that you loved and really excelled at was the sort of the beginning part where it's free reign playing, putting all of your ideas down. Because so often, that can be the part that just intimidates people, because it's like, my goodness, why do I even begin with that? I've got so many ideas so much to say, or I've got nothing to say. And so often this is the very beginning. But actually, for you It sounds like it was it was much more a case of when you were further down the line.
Selina Barker 16:41
Yeah. Which which makes total sense of my personality. I'm an ENFP. I'm an ENFP and Myers Briggs, similar to you, but you're in ENFJ. Yeah, I think it's true. Why did you own NFJ? Yeah. So um, so an ENFP personality type is very open ended, doesn't like to finish anything off. I don't like to finish off project. So it was that get that part where I was having to start the craft part. I was just like, I'm out. I don't want. I don't I can't do it. Because I was right. It's it doesn't come as naturally as being like, I never ever, ever had a problem of looking staring at a blank page. I was just like, uh, you did my problem is too much. I was I wrote way I wrote like, twice as many words, as I was supposed to, and then had to, like, bring it down and hone it down. And actually even more so I think. So, yeah, that part where it's just like coming out with ideas and letting everything flow and being playful and no limits, that would came very easily. And as soon as it was like organising and honing the craft part that doesn't come naturally. Whereas some personality types, that's the bit that's the bit that they come into the into their own. And the hard part is, bring getting the words out onto the page. Yeah.
Christina Bradley 18:02
And I think for me, I struggle, probably more at the beginning, where it's just like, getting the story out. And then the actual crafting of it, because I've got something tangible to work with. I'm like, Okay, perfect. And then yeah, a lot more because I sort of created the parameters. But when it's just like, Oh, my God, where do we even begin with this? That's when I don't know if it's because I feel intimidated by it, or just sort of maybe the lack of, even if I have a very strong idea, it's the lack of structure.
Selina Barker 18:29
That's the J in you. that's our difference. I don't like structure. Whereas you you need that.
Christina Bradley 18:36
I feel like I need a bit of it, just to give some a bit of container, I think. I was talking on a different episode about this, too. You know, Charlie, from the Urban Writers Retreat, and she helps people.
Selina Barker 18:48
Yes I do! Charlie took me trapezing once. Oh my god, it was one of the best experiences of my life, and I'm scared of heights. Anyway, that's a side note. She's wonderful.
Christina Bradley 19:02
She's wonderful. And we were talking about this yesterday, and just the, the part of writing that can so often trip you up. And for me, I was sort of saying it's, it's I need that kind of container to hold my creativity, I think otherwise, I'm just like, oh, my goodness, I don't know where to start.
Selina Barker 19:20
Yeah, whereas whereas I'm the opposite. So it's, and I think that's probably then where I didn't suffer procrastination at all. But I suffered the meltdown when I was going to have to start organising something I tell you what was also wonderful part of the creative process, both actually doing the audible series and and this book, which was, Well no, I have experienced it before creating courses with Vicki. Project love, which I co founded with, with Vicki six years ago, and we've created courses together and actually that said, I've also created courses, with Marianne Cantwell from Free Range Human, though I've done have done collab stuff before but working with the publisher at, Octopus, who's also a very good writer herself, and very different to me. So she is far more likely to stare at she was just like, Oh my God, my problem is coming up with enough words, your problem is cutting them down. So she was, that's why I wanted she was the publisher specifically her I wanted to work with because I knew that she would bring to it, what I don't have, which has that ability to take a step back. And so that that's why the book that we have today is something I feel so proud of, because I had her help really helping me with the crafting bit really helping me to cut big chunks out which I was like, but that's Hold on a minute. Oh, okay. Yeah. All right, fine. Yeah, no, I get it. Yes, you're right. I can't, you know, I went for everything in the kitchen sink. And then she was just like, let's leave some stuff. other books.
Christina Bradley 20:54
So that's, that's fascinating. How did that feel? Because I think that's such an important part when you've written something. And it doesn't matter whether we're talking about writing or whatever you've created, but you feel and I don't know if this is the case with your words. But but so often, you'll create something and you'll feel like actually do what that's really good. And I'm really proud of it. And I love that I love that phrase, or I love that section. And then it says like, yeah, it doesn't belong there, cut it. And the idea of actually having to kind of cut your creative work did that. Were you able to just sort of think, well, it's for the greater good doesn't matter? Or did it feel quite difficult making those sorts of edits?
Selina Barker 21:28
Do you know what the she was just, it's making me realise how brilliant Kate, Kate Adams she's called, how brilliant was it has been working with her because I really trusted her, I really trust her talent, her, she has worked in the self help publishing industry for longer than I have been doing this stuff. So she really knows what she's talking about. She really knows what makes a good book, she really knows how much to give people. And she also allowed me to push back. So you know, so and so she was very respectful in that sense. So it'd be something like, I'd be like, okay, I don't think there was anything where I pushed back and said, No, I really do want to keep this content. And how about we put it here? She might have said, Well, actually, how about we put it there? She would say, okay, you know, fine, we'll, we'll we'll make it work. So I was very, very lucky to work with someone that had that different skill set, was a writer herself. And yeah, really took it away and did a lot of the crafting for me, actually. And you know what, she would come back, she'd go, here go, I don't think there's any rewrites. And I would I the second draft, I read through that what she had done. And, and I just given me that time to step away from what I had written and come back to it and go, that's not good enough, that's not good enough. That's not not of her work. Not what she'd done of my original work. And I pretty much rewrote at least half the book in the second draft.
Christina Bradley 23:06
But I feel like when you're writing the first draft, even if you sort of at the time, think it's great when you do have that distance in space, and you come back to it, you you, you're more objective about it, but I feel like the first draft is kind of like a warm up, and you're just getting into your groove. And you're also learning the craft of writing. And there's so much that you're sort of getting in there as a sort of an exercise in the actual process of writing, that when you come to write the second draft, I don't know something for me, it just clicked and I was like, oh, now I've really found my voice. Whereas I feel like my first draft was very much about sort of establishing what my voice was in the second draft. It was like, I've got it and went
Selina Barker 23:42
Also, also, I think with the first draft, I mean, I was I was dredging that stuff out, you know, me, like I was slogging my way through like, so the energy that you bring them to that writing, it had a bit of that, like, just get this out of me like, because I had that deadline. You know, so the second time I was reading through, some of it was fine and some of its like not this needs a bit of lightening up a little bit just needs to be written in a bit of a lighter, more playful energy which I did not have when I was writing that first draft and but then the second time so that's with a bit of space and then coming back to it I was in a far more back into the joyful experience of writing. Because with the first draft also, like I say, it wasn't like I was writing on it. When I write on career change around life design. I've been doing this stuff this has been my it's been my business, literally my business to understand what it takes to create life and and and a career that you love. But not so much of burnout. So as as one of the experts I was speaking to a mindset coach said, who's also has done a PhD she was like oh my god. You're literally done the equivalent of a PhD or a master's in burnout, like studying it, understanding it. And now you're going to turn it into a self help book. And I was just like that. So it's, it's so when you, yeah, so that kind of perhaps came through, I think a little bit of my writing as I was getting the final draft, the first draft done. So in the second time round, I was able to bring a bit more energy and play and lightness to the writing,
Christina Bradley 25:32
Which is so important. And this is it that segues really nicely into a subject that I really want to talk to you about, which is play. And and, you know, you've mentioned it a few times as you're talking about your writing and the whole creative process. And I think we share a similar philosophy on playing the importance of play. Yeah, that's, I wonder if you can just talk about that for a little bit, just in terms of what play means to you why it's so important. And and when we talk about play, you know, what do we actually mean by that? Because I think a lot of a lot of us don't, you know, we associate it as what children do, but as adults, we sort of lost touch with what play is. So can you speak to that a little bit.
Selina Barker 26:10 I said, I studied play as part of my dissertation...
Christina Bradley 26:14
I love the fact that you studied play, that's amazing.
Selina Barker 26:16
I studied play, but pure play. So that and and if you go back to God, I've got to get back into actually looking back into it again. But I think it was the Romans and or the Greeks, but that talked about pure play. And that really took play seriously, they would create the sacred space for play, I do actually want to go back and, and get back into what I once knew and studied 20 years ago, I forgive myself for not fully remembering. And, but that, yeah, taking it even in the Olympic Games, I think just the whole idea and the ritual around play, and all these things, and they took it seriously, they understood it was a really essential part of our growth and creativity, and life, actually, and the human experience. And, you know, we are such playful creatures. And I always say it's our magic is our real life magic as human beings that we are able to dream something up that doesn't yet exist, and then bring it into reality. And the way that we do that, is through play, you know, explore, we experiment, we try things out. And so much of the process that I do with people when I'm coaching them, or when I'm taking people through courses, or even, you know, writing, well, perhaps not in this book, but in my future books, there'll be more about playing there. But it is about exploring, it's about experimenting, it's trying things on for size, you know, if you think I think maybe I'd like this kind of career, think about how you used to make believers as kids, like, let's go try it out, let's play. Let's give it a go. You don't have to wait for permission. Just you know, have a go at live your day as a writer, for example, if you dream of being, what would that day look like for you like, give yourself a day to actually play at being a writer a be it rather than dreaming about it play into existence.
Christina Bradley 26:16
I love that so, so much and this whole idea of make believe, because I think as as adults, we sort of we we almost reject that. And it's like, oh, it's silly, or I'm embarrassed or we're so self concious about it. And the most joyful thing as a child is make believe is so wonderful and juicy, and just soul nourishing, that it's mind blowing, that as adults, we don't do that anymore. And especially as you're saying, when it comes to creating a life that you want, or trying something on for size, what better just to step into it and make believe and see how that feels and indulge that that kind of playful side. It's wonderful.
Selina Barker 28:50
It's such we left we leave so much behind when we become adults, serious adults, you know, and I was told, when I stepped into the world of work and our society, I don't want to do this No way. No, no, no, no. And I was because I had always promised myself I didn't enjoy my job. I didn't enjoy school, I didn't enjoy just the whole education system in the UK. And so I was always like looking for one day, I will be free of this. And then I will be you know, one day This will finish I will be free. And so when I stepped into the world of work, I was like You are kidding me because it this is more, this is more the same. And it's worse now because now I'm really sensing the like the inequality between, you know, men and women and I was just that and I hadn't experienced that. And I was like this is like everything from school, but now with an added layer where I'm being treated differently because of my gender. And I'm a white woman so I don't even have like, you know what a black woman would have in the world of work. So I was just like, No, no, no, no, I'm not having this. And I say I want to have a career that Love, and that gives me freedom and everyone was just like it you are, you're literally becoming an adult, you need to stop being such a dreamer, you need to leave that stuff behind. Play fun. And, and and the idea that work could be fun and play and dreaming that should be left. That's the stuff for children
Christina Bradley 30:18
And you're away with the faires, to even be thinking like that.
Selina Barker 30:21
Yeah, it is such we are losing so much by not allowing ourselves to dream, taking our dream seriously and playing.
Christina Bradley 30:29
Yeah. And I think in doing that, and having to sort of step into this very, very adult role, which is kind of full of drudgery and stress and heaviness. And, and in turn feeling like you have to reject that more playful, childlike part of yourself. I feel like you're rejecting a really big part of who you are, and you haven't to step into this like, I don't know, this uniform that doesn't always actually fit properly with people, but yet, that's what society says we should do. So it's like, fine, I'll just abandon myself and just do this role. And, and I think as well, that's probably why a lot of people end up coming to see you, right? Because they're like no more.
Selina Barker 31:06
Yes, particularly what I call frustrated, creative. So people who are creative at heart, and who are just not experiencing that level of creativity, something is fundamentally missing in their lives. And they may not know what it is, but they know the work is bringing them no joy. And they believe it can they have they have a sense, or they know some people who seem to be enjoying their work a lot more than them, and they want that for themselves. And, you know, at first people were like, maybe I'm just being too picky. Maybe I'm asking too much. I'm like, what, no, you've only got this life.
Christina Bradley 31:37
So why don't you try and do it on your own terms.
Selina Barker 31:40
Exactly. And I think when we cut ourselves off from that play, and dreaming and that magic that we have to dream things up, and then make them real and take our dream seriously. We cut ourselves off from what is so magical about the human experience, you know, just following someone like doing things the way other people do or doing that living life the way we think we should following the rules, you know, following the rules of what Marianne Cantwell calls the beige army, which I think sums it up perfectly.
Christina Bradley 32:16
It's like reject the beige army at all costs.
Selina Barker 32:18
Yeah. And it's scary to live a life that you're creating to your own rules, it's scary to tune and listen to your heart and go, I'm going to go down this path, which is not the path that's expected of me, which is not the part of the status quo, which is not what is considered success, you know, in our, in our society, and I'm going to go down this path anyway. Because it's, this is what makes me come alive. That takes serious courage. But like, why would you wish to live any other way comfortable and safe and bored and numb and switched off is no way to live. But that is the way that we are educated actually, to. I was not once in my entire education. No one ever said to me, You can love the work that you do. Your career can be an absolute source of joy and, and growth, and, you know, collaboration, everything. Like I love my career so much, and no one ever told me that was possible.
Christina Bradley 32:36
And I think the other thing that they don't tell you is possible that, you know, it can be your own creation. You know, it's
Selina Barker 33:29
Yes
Christina Bradley 33:30
I think that's the missing part is school, among many others. But this idea that you have to get a job you have to be employed, you know, you have to get a certain number of qualifications in order to get these jobs. And it's actually, you've got more control than that, and you can actually create something for yourself. So this is an interesting question. Do you think that the process of creating a life that you love a business that you love, a career that you love is the same process as the same creative process as any other. Do you think that it requires the same kind of creative journey?
Selina Barker 34:07
I think so. I think I suppose different credit, all depends on what you're creating. Right? So I have own I mean, I've created obviously a business businesses. I've created a book recently, I've created audible series. They all have different creative journeys, you know, they follow a different creative journey because of the kind of thing that they are. And I've also made all sorts of dreams come true. I quit my life in London when I was 31. Nine years ago, and and decided I didn't want to be living this this London City Life. I wanted something different. I wanted adventure, and I reduced all my possessions to 100 things and I bought a camper van, a yellow comm fan who I called Beryl and we travelled all over the UK for six months living and working from barrel and it was absolutely incredible. That Just going after that dream. And I remember I remember when I first declared, I said, I'm doing this, and I put it on my blog, and it was public. And I had such an attack from my shitty committee. It was just like, oh my god, we've really this is the saddest thing this is so this is all like, what are you doing? It just just collapsed on me and I just went remember riding out like a storm because I remember writing about it and documenting riding out like a storm. And eventually I was just like, I hear you, I get it. You sound pretty terrified by this idea, and I'm still doing it. And it's going to be okay. And I think maybe, yeah, so I suppose deciding I'm going to write a book. I suppose that shitty committee attack have really happened later on. Although when I when they the publisher came back and said, Yes, we want you to write this book. It's happening. I remember I went out a few days later, or like, within the sort of couple of weeks following that being like, right, okay, I'm writing a book. And I went out, just had a few drinks with the girls. It was a Christmas thing. I this does not normally happen to me. I got absolutely steaming drunk. Like my friends are like, we've never seen any like this. I don't think I've i don't think i've seen myself. I was so ill the next day. I was just I mean, I had probably more drinks and I like mixed drinks. But in a way that has happened before that kind of unravelling and I was, again speaking to my friend, the teacher across the road. I don't know why it's important she's a teacher. But I thought I like the fact that she was wise and yeah, she's younger than me. But you know, she's a teacher. And she was just like I said to her, I said, I think my whole system was just reeling from this, I don't know, shock or just just this, oh my god, this the enormity of what I was about to do and the vulnerability of it, and just my whole system was freaking out under the surface. And just adding a few Margarita's some red wine to it. It just, I just, I just kind of exploded? I don't it was so weird, because it was Yeah. So out of character. And also with the amount of alcohol I'd had, it just didn't seem to add up. And I think it was, yeah, it was just that it was the start of like, turning my insides out. I don't know.
Christina Bradley 37:32
It's so interesting. I think as well, it's some of those sort of ingredients that you talk about, you know, the the vulnerability and the shitty committee and turning your insides out. I feel like that's just a journey of all sorts of big changes, or creative projects
Selina Barker 37:46
Totally
Christina Bradley 37:47
That's kind of the common link between them all, they all require you to really put yourself out there to invest something to put something on the line. And, you know, to suffer the voices the shitty committee and and to do it anyway.
Selina Barker 38:01
Exactly.
Christina Bradley 38:01
Because that's where the joy lies.
Selina Barker 38:03
So yeah, I think so an answer to your question. Yeah, absolutely I think creating a life that you love is, is that is a creative process. It's a creative journey. It involves play at involves facing your demons, it involves having to be vulnerable, it involves having to find inner strength you didn't know you had an inner courage or has you know, you have to take leaps of faith, you have to trust, you have to trust the process. I say this all the time in my coaching journeys with people trust the process, it's the creative process, and the process is really it's not something that I've got formulated the processes to turn up to take your dream seriously. So it's really say what you want to try things out to play, to explore, to experiment, then to take a step back and go, okay, which of this that I actually enjoy? What is working here and what isn't working? Do I have to reassess things? Do I have to change direction, try something different. All of these things are part of the creative process, you know that experimentation is play, make believe trying things out before they've actually become real. So yeah, so for me, your your life is your greatest creative project.
Christina Bradley 39:20
It's the ultimate creative project.
Selina Barker 39:21
It is and sometimes it's about going, I have a dream. And I'm going to take that dream seriously, I'm going to play full out to make it happen. Now, you might not always create that, that dream will reach that goal, it might turn to something else, or you know what, you try it and it didn't work or you tried it and it actually the effort, it's not worth it. Like I just didn't realise it was gonna take this and, you know, so you've got that. But you also have things where you do have a dream and you go above and beyond even your wildest dreams. And then you also have the creative process of planting seeds of ideas going you know what, I'm going to try this I'm going to like for example, So I have a podcast with Vicki, the project love podcast, which we've been doing for six years. And when we first started project love, it started out as being about, you know, a fresh new approach to love and dating, and then it brought in the kind of living a life you love as well. But when we first started out, I said to Vicki, let's we're having so many interesting conversations about love and dating and self love and how love is actually cultivated from the inside out. It's not something that you find really challenging all those, you know, the sort of narratives that we have a modern day society about love and how you find it and how to make it last and unpacking it all. I said, Let's press play. Let's start let's do a podcast. She was like, What? What you were not ready for? What do you mean? Like? Because I was so already by then I'm so used to playing and trying things out and not waiting till it's perfect. Just going press play rough and ready. Put it out there? Do we enjoy creating it? And do people enjoy receiving it? And it's a yes to both those things, then let's keep going until we get bored of it or
Christina Bradley 41:05
something changes? Yeah,
Selina Barker 41:07
yeah. And so we did. And we literally would get together with our laptop and press play using audacity, no microphones, nothing. Not even like a headset like I'm wearing now with a microphone attached. And we do it in the Southbank Centre in London, so you'd hear people walking by. But we set that aside here, this is what we're doing. And we did it on Fridays, which was Vicki was still in employment, full time employment, she went down to four days a week, or she even took a holiday first once every Friday. And that was how our day of playing at having our project love business. And I was just like one day, this will be a full time job. She's like, Oh, my God, dream come true. And that is exactly what happened. And eventually that dream did come true. But that's how we started. And you know, six years later, the project a podcast, we love it. We love the community that's grown around it. And it's ended up being our primary marketing platform, where people hear about us, they get to know us. And that's where many of our coaching clients, she's a love coach on life design and career change coach, that's where many of our coaching clients come from
Christina Bradley 42:12
Well, that's where I came from.
Selina Barker 42:13
That's where you came from.
Christina Bradley 42:15
Because Ilistened to your fabulous podcast, and, I love it. And and yeah, and that's how I found you. And that's how you and I started working together. So yeah, it's it's amazing. And I think also, at the start all of those sort of projects that you don't know where it's going to end up. And I talk about this quite a lot on this show that when we start out something, and we're focused purely on the outcome and the end result that can often set us on the wrong path. And it's not about that it's not about where it's going. It's just about engaging in the process. And doing it for the sake of doing it, which is the ultimate in the creative process, I think.
Selina Barker 42:52
Yeah. And if anything, I was suddenly thinking like, I love the creative journey so much. I am actually very excited about the burnout book and putting it out there and having been having conversations about you know, how to thrive in a fast paced world. And you know, how to change the way that we're working things like that. And so that that will become my new creative project, I suppose, is sending my baby out into the world and having these deep, painful conversations, because otherwise I was like, once it's done, I've slightly felt this for the career change. Coach, the audible series, I was like, well, it's out there, right. Next, I was like, Oh, no, no, you've got to, yeah, you've got to sort of celebrate it and talk about it. And so yeah, so it's interesting that of then, realising how much I love the creative process more than actually achieving the result. You know, you dream of having the book you dream of having the book but actually turned out my favourite part of the dream was this wild journey that it took me on. I will feel very excited to have the book in my hands
Christina Bradley 43:57
Of course, because it's tangible product of all of that hard work and everything and when you hold it, you'll know just what a journey it was getting there. So of course, nothing can take away from that.
Selina Barker 44:09
But I love the journey. I even with the meltdowns, you know, that is part of it. You can't , like you say it's a necessary part of it
Christina Bradley 44:19
You can't have one without the other. This has been such a fabulous conversation. Thank you so much. I've got one question to leave you with. I would love to know what living a creative life means to you right now.
Selina Barker 44:30
Oh my god.
Christina Bradley 44:31
You know I'm actually gonna think about this question and change it because I was like, I need to have a really good, poignant question to end with and every time I ask people like, I'm totally stumped with that.
Selina Barker 44:43
So living a creative life. What does that look like?
Christina Bradley 44:46
What does it mean?
Selina Barker 44:46
Oh, yeah, okay. I do have an answer. I just needed a moment. Is panicked. No for me it means allowing yourself to dream daring to dream. Dreaming from within, not by looking at the cues from the outside of the kind of life You should be living, but really take time, spending time with yourself to allow your own dreams to come up from that sort of deeper source. taking those dreams seriously, you know, we're told Stop being such a dreamer are the other way, take your dream seriously, turn those dreams into projects, and bring them into reality. And that is what it is to me. Because there is for me there is nothing more fulfilling than living a life that I created that I dreamt up that I made happen. And I had to go through transformation and a lot of healing and a lot of self love, for that dream to be able to take hold in my life for that dream to be able to take shape. And there's nothing more fulfilling, magical than knowing that I've used that that magic that we have as human beings. And that's why I'm so passionate about helping others to realise that they can do that, too, that we all have that power, even in an uncertain world. And we can't, we can't control everything, for sure. There's stuff that comes our way as we know for a well in 2020. But when that happens when you are the artist of your own life, and you know how to play, you play within that you create with little limitations. And actually, limitations are we need to have that sacred space to play and we need to have boundaries, we need to have limitations, that structure creates that framework to then know what we're playing in to have context. And that is how we will get through these difficult times is by continuing to allow ourselves to play and not get frozen and suddenly think we have to become serious and just survive this. Play your way through this as much as you possibly can. And that playfulness doing playful things even like playing games or you know creating a making or cooking. Those moments of that those daily moments of just things that lift your spirits, the simple pleasures, that kind of play. That makes all the difference.
Christina Bradley 47:02
The magical answer that was so perfect. It actually gave me goose bumps, I'm sat here just nodding I just agree with everything you've just said. And that was a perfect note to finish on. Selena, thank you so much. I have absolutely loved this. I could talk to you all day long on this subject.
Selina Barker 47:14
Me too. I am so excited. Your podcast is in the world. So excited.
Christina Bradley 47:21
Thank you my love. If people want to work with you, where can they find you?
Selina Barker 47:26
Well, if they head on over to Salina, barker.com then I have my different coaching programmes there. I just started offering a life coaching programme. So I've been doing career change coaching programmes for the past many years. And suddenly, people have been coming to me in droves saying, I want I want you to be my life coach. So I say Oh, I should have a life coaching programme. So I'm very excited. That's all that we've been talking about today is really learning how to create a life and I keep one say relationship but that's project love. Okay, a life and career that you love. And learn to be the artist of your own life and taking your dream seriously and unlocking those dreams. So yeah, head on over to Selena barker.com and you'll find out everything there. I'm also on Instagram at Selena the coach and very soon I'm going to be starting what is called you can hear it for here first the Monday Crew I don't know when this is actually going out. So it may already be there. But it will be a sort of newsletter where you get a little audio 10-15 minutes from me or do each Monday and we'll have a little Monday check in to really help us all including myself. Start the week take a moment it's called the Monday crew and I'm really excited.
Christina Bradley 48:41
The Monday Crew, and can we find it on Instagram is that where we'll be able to sign up?
Selina Barker 48:44
You will hear about. Yeah, if you follow me at Selena, the coach on Instagram, then you'll be able to know I'll be announcing it there but I didn't know when this is going out but it's going to be in October that will as soon as the guy as soon as the little podcast studio, it's not podcast you It's my it's my partner's music studio but it will be using it also I've got a tiny corner apparently that I'm allowed to use for podcasts and quiet work so every Monday morning I'll be going in there and I will be in back to made in a moment creating an audio in the moment having done my own check in and something to reflect on something for us all to try that week encouraging people to set an intention talking about things like play, thriving, designing your life and just a little nugget to start your week.
Christina Bradley 48:45
Sounds blissful, I'm there, I'm excited for that.
Selina Barker 49:35
Yay.
Christina Bradley 49:35
Thank you so much. Selena. We'll talk again soon.
Selina Barker 49:38
Thank you