Christina Bradley 0:00
Hello, Timur
Timur Zobu 0:01
Hi.
Christina Bradley 0:02
Hi, thank you so much for joining me on the creativity campus podcast. It's great to have you here.
Timur Zobu 0:08
Great to be here.
Christina Bradley 0:09
And we are talking today all about storytelling, which, obviously there's a relationship between creativity and storytelling. But we're using this session to really deep dive into the world of story, which I personally am super excited about. And before we start, perhaps you could just say a few words about yourself, because you are a very experienced storyteller. And I'm right in saying in the form of screenwriting...
Timur Zobu 0:34
Yes, that's right. Yeah. So I've been a screenwriter for the last 10 years. So I've been writing film and TV projects in development with companies like Endor and blueprint, who did three billboards. And I have worked as a script doctor for protagonists pictures on a Hollywood rom com, as well as working with tablets for an all house feature film, as well. So yeah..
Christina Bradley 1:03
So very, very experienced in that field.
Timur Zobu 1:06
Yes, so yeah, I thought I've done a few things. Yeah.
Christina Bradley 1:11
And recently, you're actually you're teaching Aren't you screenwriting?
Timur Zobu 1:15
Yes, I am. So I've been teaching for the last four years, maybe even five. Now. I'm teaching at the Met Film School, which is set in Ealing studios, in Ealing. And then I've also been teaching Central School Speech and Drama, I teach at the University of Creative Arts in Farnum. And I've taught the central film school in Whitechapel. But I think but yeah, but more recently, in the last year and a half, I've been teaching HMP, Thamesside, which is a prison Category B men's prison in Woolwhich Where I've been teaching the prisoners how to write short films,
Christina Bradley 1:52
Which is amazing. And something I want to talk about, because I just think it's so fascinating. There's lots I want to talk about. And I think, obviously, with all that experiences, I don't know whether this session will be long enough, but we shall try. And do you see yourself just out of interest? Do you see yourself as a writer who teaches? or a teacher who writes or does it not matter? And you're you're a bit of both? Where does your heart lie?
Timur Zobu 2:18
Well, I mean, it's a good question. I mean, I would know. So normally, I said, Well, up until recently, I definitely say I was a screenwriter, who taught a bit. And in the last few years, and certainly last couple of years, I mean, one of the things I really wanted to kind of test out one of the reasons why the prison thing came about was because I was kind of asking myself the question, because I really enjoyed, and really enjoy teaching, I just get a real buzz out of it. And I just kind of found myself asking questions to film school saying, like, am I? Am I, a screenwriter who teaches a bit, you know, to people who are kind of, like, from from from well off backgrounds? Or, you know, can you take these principles? Can you take the storytelling principles and the teaching principles? And can you actually, you know, do they work across the board, and I was looking for something to really challenge me and one of my adult students in one of the adult ed classes, basically, at that moment, kind of as a perfect confluence of events where he came and said to me, You know, I've been teaching creative writing to people in prison, and you should try it out. And so that's what I did. So I actually better so I stuck my hand and said, Can I come down and do it, and I volunteered there. And, and it turns out there the principles that I was teaching, do work, you know, because you're talking you're talking about story, but you know, and use about people's story. And people in prison have all have stories, they will have amazing stories, and they will really interesting people, but also the teaching principles. work as well. You know, the things that I've kind of been kind of picking up naturally and kind of working with those things also works. And I found that people really, guys, they're really responding to what I was teaching them. And which made me think that there's a long winded way of answer your question, because maybe think about again, yeah, so we had just before this conversation started about lineages being was the lineage of a storyteller.
Christina Bradley 4:07
Hmm.
Timur Zobu 4:10
Yeah, so what's the lineage? So you say, and this is what I talked about, in our first session, when it whenever we do courses, start the courses off and say, why do we tell stories? Where do they come from?
Christina Bradley 4:21
Well, that's a great question, because that's what I had for you. So please tell us
Timur Zobu 4:27
well, that's it. I mean, so that's the question I always say, so why do we tell stories and, you know, variably, you get the same sort of answers that people say we'll it's for entertainment it's for escapism, and those sorts of things. But you know, ultimately, the thing that I'm looking for when we're when we're, when we're teaching these sessions is for people to realise that they're there to send a message, they're there to teach us and they're there to tell us about the human condition. We project ourselves into these stories and we you know, these these, these stories are told again, and again, because they Tell us how to be in the world. And they help us like, surmount insurmountable problems. And, you know, you've got these great mythologies, you've got Icarus, who flew too close to the sun and then crashed and burned. And, you know, it just tells us not overreach, we're onto a good thing. And, you know, you've got David and Goliath. And these are the stories that, that tell us that, you know, we can overcome insurmountable odds, if we are not good and persistent. And, you know, we think harder, you know, and kind of innovate and use technology, we can take on a much bigger bstacles than our own than ourselves. And, and there's a reason why we tell these stories, and that's why, you know, and and it's because they make up the culture that we live in. And, you know, so and we'll talk about this in a bit, we'll talk about how that kind of relates to nowadays, and how like soap operas and, and Mad Men and Breaking Bad kind of create the culture that we live in. If you look back further, and you'll see that so there's a reason. So the reason you tell these stories, you know, historically is because you're trying to teach your, your children you're trying to teach the people that live within your village will come from when we were living in the wilderness is years and years ago, you know, the kind of eternal solutions to the eternal problems.
Christina Bradley 6:22
Yeah, the life lessons.
Timur Zobu 6:24
Yeah, exactly. And so if you think about what we'd be doing, let's say 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, we're all kind of sitting around with fires a flickering fire, and then the kind of the Sharman or the storyteller, or the Bard, who had us who is trusted and intrusted with the stories of being passed down a long tradition to tell these stories. And we all sit around at the end of the day's work kind of hunting whatever, around flickering fire, we hear the story that tells about bravery, or, you know, Forbidden Love, or how to overcome the worst obstacles, you know, all those sorts of things that create a culture. And, you know, that's what that's what the story that those were, those stories there, create the culture. But now, we all get back from a day of work, and we sit around a flickering TV screen, and you watch the stories
Christina Bradley 7:12
that fill the storytelling mechanism, isn't it? Exactly. It's the same thing. And so, from from that lineage, are we are we sort of predisposed to have a predisposition towards story, it's part of our DNA, and therefore we just immediately gravitate to it. Do you think in whatever form?
Timur Zobu 7:31
Yeah, I mean, everything. Everything's a story, your story? You know, I said, tell me that. Tell me the myth of Christina Bradley. Yeah, you know, and you go one at a time there was this girl who like Oh, right. Okay, cool. It all everything you tell yourself about who you are, is your story. Now, if you look around, look outside the window, and you look at your culture. That's a story.
Christina Bradley 7:53
Of course it is yet
Timur Zobu 7:55
The UK is a story. The UK doesn't really exist apart from the fact that we all agree it does.
Christina Bradley 7:59
Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we will believe that.
Timur Zobu 8:04
Yeah, the characters who are the players in that story, you've got Henry the Eighth or two kings you've got right now you've got Boris is the king and he's, you know, he's within his court. You know, we've got the Queen as this as this, you know, these you see all the characters that are playing out, then it will Yes, 100% those your archetypes that your story archetypes, but also, and you look at the celebrities who populate that story, because the people who make England who it is if I could say like Mick Jagger, and then put your symbols, you've got the union jack, you've got an Aston Martin, all these things that make up our culture make up the story of what the UK is. And the movies. That's those there. That's the story. And then if you can go even deeper if you're into about currency, money, that's a story.
Christina Bradley 8:57
What do we do with that, then? So that's so I love that because it's really, you know, just showing so clearly how story is everywhere. It's who we are. It's what we immerse ourselves in. It's the making of our culture, is everything we know. But surely, then that's the sort of a perspective, isn't it? It's the lens with which we choose to look at these stories from which alters the narrative of them.
Timur Zobu 9:20
Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's one of the things I teach the students to teach any any storyteller is that, you know, we're all the hero in our own story, right? So Dathvader wandering around in Star Wars, thinking that he's the good guy, right? He's taking on a bunch of terrorist rebels, these uppity rebels that basically threatening the peace of the galaxy. And he's not happy about it, and he's trying, you know, so, in the same way that you know, we have one narrative about what how, what the UK seems like to us, and then someone else has different perspective, a different country might have different perspective, a different group has that perspective. And, you know, and that story has positive applications. I mean, so you Just to go back to, to what you were asking me about whether I'm a teacher or or a screenwriter, I think so what I say is that those things, the same sort of thing basically says to, you know, I'm a modern day Bard, or, you know, Sharman, or whatever you want to call it. And actually, stories are very powerful, they're very powerful ways of actually helping people healing people. You know, that's why in the Scriptures, people talk in parables, so that, you know, they're metaphors that we can, you know, kind of insert ourselves into to try and work out how to get past a hardship. And that can be very healing and useful. And I think that's a similar sort of thing, you know, in the film schools, not so much, but maybe in the prison. I think that going in there. And, you know, teaching people about story and how to express themselves might actually help effect the way they see their own story and my change, you know, I change the way they see themselves and hopefully for the better.
Christina Bradley 10:59
Yeah, and did and how that whole prison experience. How did that work? And how did the prisoners respond to the teaching to the idea of finding these stories? And how did you help them? Sort of? I mean, obviously, the stories are very much within them, I would imagine that how is that process in terms of helping them sort of find their voice, I suppose. How did that work?
Timur Zobu 11:27
Well, I mean, the thing is, I mean, okay, so the prison experience, has been probably the most valuable thing I've done. For me. You know, I was beginning you know, we talked about conflict, and growth. So we talked about in storytelling, you say that, you know, that you have a character, and you throw a conflict at them. And then the way in which they overcome that conflict and change as a character, or don't change, if you want, if you're in a tragic story, is the growth. And, you know, for me, at the time, I was looking for something very challenging. And, you know, going to prison was challenging, certainly, for the first few weeks, it was very, very scary. I was, I felt like I was out of my depth. But But, you know, the thing that kind of really struck me was that they're, they're all people, no matter what they've done, you know, the thing that they've done, is not acceptable, but they themselves, that doesn't mean that they're not acceptable. And actually, they're there to, and, you know, they're there to to put things right. And I really quickly realised that they were all they're all pretty happy to be taking part in the process, because, you know, they, you know, some, some of them are locked up for 23 and a half hours a day, they get half an hour to kind of walk around outside in the back into their cells. And Thamesside is a pretty good prison, actually, like it's a private prison that was built 10 years ago by surco. I have been to their cells, and they've got some of them have, well, a lot of them have incell kind of systems where they can watch TV that streamed this DVD channel. So what often offer classes we put on a DVD, or I tell them as homework, I will watch that film so we can discuss it the week after. And they also have access to a Microsoft Word and Excel. And so it's kind of a it's kind of a nice prison and compared to somewhere like Brixton or Pentonville is not an old Victorian prisons that kind of like in the classical sort of mould. And how did it work? I mean, so I went in there, and you're, you know, you're teaching story principles, and it talks to everybody because story story talks to everyone because it's there's a universal, universal patterns, story structure,
Christina Bradley 13:37
and do people where the prison is able to identify that when you when you started talking him through it, were they able to see that and identify that within themselves?
Timur Zobu 13:45
Yeah, that's such a good question. And I had this like, absolutely mind blowing experience with a drug dealer whose name I won't mention. And it was quiet, but I mean, I say yeah, yeah, that's just like my drug dealer. Like drop the story of people like no, my drug. My drug dealings in the prison. Not my drug
Christina Bradley 14:09
Not your personal drug deal. Your personal drug dealer.
Timur Zobu 14:10
Yeah. Sometimes talk about my prisoners. Let's say you wanted to prison. Yeah. And, and but yeah, so he was amazing, because story structure. And I mean, I, this sounds a little bit, I don't sound like voyeuristic and in it. But like, he was looking at the story structure on that day, we've got what we're studying, and he mapped everything onto his own life, the story of why he was in prison, how to go into prison, even even the death at the end of Act Two, because there's always a death at the end of Act Two is either literal or metaphorical. story and it's that death is what sink basically, that's your characters kind of point of no return. And they realise, well, something's changed forever and I have to do something now. Am I going to take a new approach or am I going to fail here, whatever and And in the story of his life, his friend had died at that point in the story. And, and it's actually at that point in the story that he realised he was like, well, he made the fatal error, which was he carried on drug dealing, even though this thing had happened. And he recognised in retrospect, he was like, that was the moment when I should have gotten out.
Christina Bradley 15:20
And that was the point of no return.
Timur Zobu 15:22
Yeah, and I didn't. And because of that, that's how I ended up getting. Wow. And his mind was like, because he was by literally looking at story structure. And he's like, Oh, my God, that's what happened in my life of this, you know, my life reflects that. And actually, that's why I call what i do want not because that is the story, but just because I see it. But you know, my company is called Life in the Story, because that story reflects life and life like stories
Christina Bradley 15:48
So just on that, do you think if Do you think most people would be able to fit their own life to the story structure? Or do you think that was a very rare case? I mean, obviously heightened because of the scenario and the fact that there was a very real death. And it sort of mirrored it completely. But But do you think that everybody could find if they trace their own life against the story structure? They would find that?
Timur Zobu 16:11
Well, great question. And I Well, it depends on where you are in the story, doesn't it?
Christina Bradley 16:17
Yes, it does. Just take a step back tomorrow, and you tell, because I just want to make sure that everybody listening to this has got a grasp of the story structure that we're talking about. So can you just do a very broad overview just so that we don't lose anybody?
Timur Zobu 16:32
Yeah, sure. Okay. And if you wanted, maybe I could even send you over something that you could put on the website?
Christina Bradley 16:37
Yes. Maybe in the show notes that would Yeah, that would be great.
Timur Zobu 16:41
Okay, so very basic story. structure is a world you start with a world we need this place for this character to exist, right? So we've got the world then we have, we're introduced to our character, a character has a problem. We need to know who they are, what's their job, their status, how old they are, you know, generally a bit, you know, just some general stuff about them. What's their ordinary world? What's their day to day? And what's the problem that might be brewing in their psyche. And then the inciting incident is the thing that gets the action going, it gets the character they want. If you're in Little Miss Sunshine, Olive decides she wants to go to the beauty pageant, and then you've got the goal. That's the thing they want. So now before, we have to get behind her to get to the beauty pageant, that's so dramatic goal if you're in American Beauty. Lester Burden falls in love with Angela and spends the rest of the film trying to sleep with her. That's his dramatic goal.
Christina Bradley 17:36
And so that's a goal always comes out of the inciting incident.
Timur Zobu 17:41
Well, the dramatic goal is informed by the size. Is the thing that gives the character with the thing they want, the thing they want, can change, you know, it might suddenly it might not be that thing they want anymore. they realise they can't have it, but they can have something else. But it's the thing that over you know, Finding Nemo, what's the dramatic goal?
Christina Bradley 17:59
I haven't watched that film.
Timur Zobu 18:00
I'll give you a little guess. what's the what's the goal? dramatical in Finding Nemo.
Christina Bradley 18:07
Finding Nemo
Timur Zobu 18:08
I felt really put on the spot, no don't test me. Yeah. Finding Nemo, I can say that confidently now.
Yeah, I mean, that's a baked into Pixar. These these guys know what they're doing. Right. So it's very clear, like, What is it? What is our characters trying to do? They're trying to find Nemo. And when does this film end, when they find him. And that's it to the essence, the essence of drama is conflict. So in order to have a conflict, what do you need? To have? I'm just asking you this question.
Christina Bradley 18:45
What do you what do you need to have in order to have conflict?
Timur Zobu 18:49
What do you need? What there is, what is it essential to have?
Christina Bradley 18:53
Well, you need to challenge you need something to overcome.
Timur Zobu 18:59
So if you're trying to overcome something that means you know, at the base level, you need to want it Right. Right. You've got it. Yes, exactly. That's your motivation. You're an actress on the so
Christina Bradley 19:08
Well, not anymore. But back in the day, yes. And everything everything in the world of acting is all about motivation. And what do you want from the scene? What do you want out of the other person it all comes down to, to motivation and it is the same with with writing what the central character is after. But they only we say we only they only know that after they're only going for that after the inciting incident where the wheels are set in motion at that point.
Timur Zobu 19:35
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they say something will come along. So Frodo is like the Gandalf Slayer here have this ring. Got to take it to Mordor. Right. Okay, shit. What does he want? He wants to go to Mordor. Or if your was a thing, I was just thinking of all of them basically. So yeah,
Christina Bradley 19:54
They follow that pattern.
Timur Zobu 19:57
Yeah, I mean, you can't have a story. That is I mean, you can But they're not very good. Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you need a character wants something, and, and they can't get it easily because then your story's over. Then what's also quite useful is you know, in the Frodo example is then so the next thing will happen is your character will normally say no, I don't want to do that. I don't get to Mordor. Why don't Mordor? That's a stupid idea the orcs. There's like, there's gonna be like, people standing up and ring racing. I'm not gonna go that's crazy idea. Yeah, you don't you can actually just want to go there. But then. Yeah, well, yeah, he's got more conflict. And then normally, there'll be some kind of turning point that kind of locks your character in, not necessarily, but often, that'd be that and then boom, they're into the new world of, of act to your story. And so then that part of story structure is then you've got the fun and games of the premise. So whatever the story's about, if it's about getting to Mordor, then you're gonna have lots of travelling to Mordor, if it's and the things they meet along the way, if it's about if you're in a rom com, and it's about you meet this person, you fall in love with them, then second acts going to be you going on dates and meeting the best friend and getting advice and things going right and things going wrong. And then, and then ultimately, that all leads to failure, though. So you need to have the all is lost moment. That's another big big one
Christina Bradley 21:20
The all is lost moment.
Timur Zobu 21:22
Yeah, all is lost. Yeah. So yet, you need to have your last moment because you can't have your character get what they want, because they haven't earned it yet. So think about what character is doing is they've got a psychological flaw, right. And we watch this film because or story or whatever show because we want to see how they overcome their flaw. They need to have this flaw, otherwise, it won't be a story because they know what to do already. And but in their life. So far, this floor that they've kind of personally they've been carrying around with them, has actually served them rather well. So what they tend to do is they go off to the thing they want in the wrong way. And that will get them so far, until ultimately it leads to failure. And it's only by being taken to the brink of failure and experiencing death in the you know, the
Christina Bradley 22:12
Either metaphorical or literal
Timur Zobu 22:14
Yeah, at the end of Act Two. So at that point, they're like, shit, I need to get my act together. Maybe I need to change my my humanity so differently. And that's when they get, then I'd like to think turning point two is the opportunity. So they have an opportunity like, right, well, here you go, you can have another stab at this, go and go into the final act. And you know, the final battle, this time, with the new sort of that they're armed with this new attitude. And at the moment, if the dramatic climax, they cut down their enemy, and it's that the moment they go with the theme of the story is revealed. And we go, of course, that's what they needed to do they needed to be an adult, or they needed to, you know, yeah, so are you gonna say
Christina Bradley 22:58
I was just gonna say and is that the lesson in it as well? Yes. Is that where we sit? You know, if we were taking something that's the lesson that we will be taking from that story is sort of revealed in that moment, when the sort of the theme of it comes out.
Timur Zobu 23:11
That's exactly it. So yes, the theme is revealed at the dramatic climax, it's the it's like, it's the answer to the question. If you think of the story as a question, right? Is it something comes along? So suddenly, we've got the central dramatic question is, will this character get what they want? Will they find Nemo? Will they get to the beauty pageant on time? And the answer at the end of Act Two is always going to be no, it really is a because they, they, they've, they've made a hash of it, for whatever reason, and you know, and someone's died, or something has died. And then by the end did then it gets a dramatic climax. And then the answer is either yes or no, depending on whether that's the right thing for them to get, because sometimes pageant isn't a good thing. You know, and I think that was when they realised that actually, the pagent is rubbish, and they shouldn't take it.
Christina Bradley 23:59
Exactly.
Timur Zobu 24:00
But you know, the answer is either yes or no, but the real you know, but the the answer that but all the all the question is, yes, or no, because of this, and you go off course. And then you get that moment of lightness, where all this kind of chaos of all the story all kind of clicks together. And you go, Oh, yeah, that's what they were talking about. That's why I've been watching this and that's a satisfying feeling. You get that and in that moment, you're living your the characters growth as well, which is why it's cathartic and wide stories are healing and why.
Christina Bradley 24:34
And relatable.
Timur Zobu 24:36
And exactly, exactly, exactly.
Christina Bradley 24:38
And ultimately, I guess why they're so important.
Timur Zobu 24:42
Yes, exactly. And that's what Yeah, and and yet you're related to yourself and you and you. Yeah, and the way you know, realising how other people can overcome their goals can help you overcome your sorry the combat challenges can realise how you make your community challenges and also change the way that you see yourself. And so yes, it's think go back to your question about how did it work the prisoners and what we could do
Christina Bradley 25:14
We're going to get to the end, and we're gonna have a nice moment where everything is revealed.
Timur Zobu 25:18
Yeah. That why I was listening today.
Christina Bradley 25:20
Yeah, exactly. Crazy conversations deep diving.
Timur Zobu 25:24
Yeah, exactly. And so with the prisons had it worked. So yeah. So, you know, in terms of my story, I went in there, I was, like, lots of conflict. I didn't, you know, I was I was intimidated. And but then you quickly realise that they're all really nice people, to an extent, and then they've done some, they've done some, some of them done some bad things. And sometimes some of them are a bit more difficult to get on with than others, as it is in life, but, you know, really perspective shifting for me, you know, that those weeks where I come out there and just be like, wow, I just really experienced some interesting stuff here. To see a different world. And,
Christina Bradley 26:03
Because going back, sorry to interrupt you, but going back to what you were saying about, you know, and where we all fit into that kind of story structure in our own lives, actually, you being the hero of your story going into that you are going on your own journey of growth and conflict in some respects. And transformation. I don't know whether that's true, but I'm just projecting that on you.
Timur Zobu 26:27
I will, I will, I will wear that for you. Yeah, I mean, that's it like, so, I obviously go, I was looking for something for myself, you know, I was looking to for challenged, I was looking for growth, I was looking for new perspectives, and I got all of those things by by going into the prison. And, you know, in terms of the, in terms of the prisoners, so, you know, I taught them like, so this is this, the thing that I that I've maintained, which is it does not matter, what I was teaching them didn't matter though teaching screenwriting, it didn't matter. It just is just the fact I was teaching them something. And, you know, it's kind of like, screenwriting is quite a sexy topic, you know, you go, yeah, it's associated with glamour in Hollywood and stuff. And it's, and, as you probably know, it's anything but for most of it, you know, a lot of it's kind of like fiddling with post it notes, you know, in your underwear, you know, is not really getting anywhere in your house. And, you know, but for whatever reason, it has the reputation it does. And I'm lucky because it's a subject where you can talk about people's own stories and, you know, allow people and help people to reflect on their own lives, which is, which is great, because you can really put people in when they start to see themselves in the stories. And ultimately, it wasn't really about that it was more about the fact that somebody was going in there, you know, I'd listened to them, give them the time of day adult to adult, you know, if they had a question, they put up their hands, I can sit down and talk to them. And you know, you know, listen to their story, listen to their story, because the story they're telling it might be fictional, but no story is, is genuinely fictional. Because there's always something of the writer in that. So when you're reading their story, you're listening to their story, you're listening to them as people. And a lot of these people I imagine in their lives, what I know of in some cases, have not had that experience. And so we're very lucky to, you know, be to the people in general, who have had the experience of being listened to and loved and, and respected. You know, though, that's, that's a real privilege. And actually, I think of just the process of going in there, listening to them, talking to them, sharing stuff with them, and then they're sharing stuff with with me, you know, that was the that was the growth, the growth was in that didn't really matter, the screen rights gonna be anything, it's just the fact that it's about that time together. And that allowed us both to kind of have that experience, and often didn't have that experience of education. And, you know, what we're doing there, you know, Thameside for me, I, you know, was volunteering, but for Thamesside, it's about having initiatives that are going to stop people from reoffending. And for me, you know, if somewhere down the line, they get out of prison, they serve a sentence, and then they go back into the community. And then there's the option between do some more crime, or here's a course in something, it could be anything, you know, it could be like being an electrician or whatever, something like that. And then they go, and if historically, they might have gone well, education has always been a bit shit, and I've had a bad experience of it and I can't necessarily read or write properly or life learning difficulty, whatever it might be, but instead, they might have actually spent some time and realise that they are actually did have that potential and could do it and actually it wasn't that bad. And they then go, I shall do that course, then you know, then then that's and that's exactly what it needs to do.
Christina Bradley 30:10
Yeah, absolutely. And that's that that's the sort of Crossroads we were talking about before, isn't it that, you know, you can go one direction or the other, and it can have huge ramifications. So I think in that sense, is amazing, is absolutely amazing. Do you think so, so with these prisoners, and just with anybody writing stories and telling stories, what do you think the most important component of that is? So if you're sitting down to write, do you think it's the sort of coming up with the idea for the story? And and knowing what that is to begin with? versus actually your ability to, to write that story? Like, where do you place the emphasis? Is it right, it's getting a really great idea, or it's knowing how to take an average idea, but applying the kind of the story structure to it? Or it's all down to really good writing? Like, how do you in your mind, what's the essence?
Timur Zobu 31:03
Well, I mean, okay, so the set, the second thing you said there was, is it about being able to take an average idea, and, you know, apply all the story elements to it and make it amazing, if you can do that, you're gonna be very successful. So I'd say, yeah, it's some of that. And is it coming up with really good ideas, really good original ideas, original ideas, are ten a penny, buy, it doesn't really matter, like this. And a lot of the things, you know, if you look at the massive franchises that come of, you know, Avengers, and things like that, those are old ideas. Yeah, just, you know, so that's not really a bad. So, you know, that doesn't even guarantee you success either. And so you're having a new idea, and being able to write and be taking your idea come, you know, it's a combination of all these things, be able to come up with new ideas, and then apply the elements to it and be a good writer. You know, it sounds glib to say just be a good writer. But the thing that I think works, and I say to my students will be a good writer, you know, the thing that makes you a good writer is being honest. Hmm. Now, like, and I don't, you know, what I mean by that is, you can try and second guess the market. So this is the thing that's so funny is, you know, we've just had this era of these, we had me too era, so everyone's been going on more women doing stuff, you want more of this, or that. And then obviously, you've got the BLM stuff just happened. And so now people say, We want more people of colour. And it was amazing that two weeks ago, I was on that boat. And during that during that class, the pitchers and pressure producer and tess inkelaar, amazing tess Wrangler who we love very much, and who is often the guest producer on the on the courses and said, Well, you know, it's just not enough to have a female lead, because that's kind of over now. And she would she'd probably say that I'm probably you're probably haven't quoted her quite right. But something words that effect as in, you know, okay. Well, we've actually gone beyond that. Now. It's like, Well, that was quick, wasn't it? You know, so and what she was what she was trying to say to your justice, as you're saying. She's saying, it can't just be that it's not just about having a few more leads, you need to have these other things as well. And you can try and second guess the market and it won't work and you drive yourself insane trying to do it. So what I recommend you do or recommend anyone does as a writer, is tell the truth. Yes, the thing that you'll be writing is going to be the thing that's bothering you psychologically.
Christina Bradley 33:42
Oh, I just love this so much. Because having having story myself, everything you're saying and gone off on many kind of not necessarily wrong routes, but indirect routes to get to a place where it's like, oh, I actually do what I'm doing now. I think part of the lessons that I learned was not being honest or trying to second guess what I wanted to kind of produce or who I thought would be reading it and then when I actually just was like No, no, no, I'm going to tell my story as honestly as it comes out of me. There was a shift then and it just when I don't know in terms of whether the quality of it improved but the it felt like mine at that point and the experience of writing it transformed
Timur Zobu 34:22
Yeah, and well and that see all this there's so much stuff going on in your language there as well. We were just saying it transformed what transformed you transformed that's what story does. Your transformation you know, it's alchemy, you know, it's your your tonne of work out, whatever whatever that thing that's going on in you. You're basically you're trying to work out right it's it's it's you're creating a metaphor. And you're an avatar there's little characters, basically you or version of you, your psyche, all the characters on your, in your story are fragments of your own psyche. They're all projections of your own psyche.
Christina Bradley 34:59
So what characters that I've come up with in my imagination. They're not actually in my imagination, they are fragments of my psyche. Is that what we're saying?
Timur Zobu 35:08
Well, they're both, they're both. So they're fragments, your psyche, and they're talking. And they're not real kind of consensus reality stuff that you can touch out here. But there is real. You want them to be inside your mind as real as anything is inside your mind. And they you because you're writing them. And they're aspects of your psyche. So they're asked you, they're the bits, you have to, they represent different parts of what you're thinking. So you've got this story, you've created a story world because you don't know how to deal with your problem yet, in the real world, Christina, in the real world might have a psychological problem. I don't even know if you have that problem. There might be there's something bothering you. And that's really bothering everybody. Right? So what your mind does is it creates a story world like a simulated world. And then it creates a character that then goes into this well has a problem that's related to your to whatever's going on with you. And then goes and deals with all the things that, you know, the obstacles, they could face that a thematic to the problem, right? Because it's weird, if you just go off piece, and this doesn't feel dramatic, they have to be characters and problems that reflect the theme the issue at hand. Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense. And then, you know, they meet with different arguing factions, which is, you know, the characters represent that in these parts of your mind. And then in the end, the character works out what to do, or they don't and it's a tragedy. In so doing, you've worked out how to overcome your psychological problem, or not.
Christina Bradley 36:41
So yeah, do you think then every every book that you read every film that you watch every play that you watch? Do you think they are all the the writer or the authors sort of working out their own psychological problem on the page? The writer is part of every single creation?
Timur Zobu 37:01
Well, I would say, okay, so I'd say certainly film as a medium that lends itself to this more because than others because it's a because they're close stories. And you know, TV, you don't want your characters to change. Because if you did, so, if you're watching episode a friend, by the end of it, Joey stops being a kind of casual, sex loving sandwich eater. And you switch off you be like, Oh, I'm not doing that anymore. Ross Ross finally meet someone and has a stable marriage to switch. So TVs and like massive TVs long form and you want them to be you know, Don Draper, you come back because He's, uh, you know, he's got all sorts of attachment trauma, which manifests as alcoholism and womanising, and all that stuff. And that goes on, that propels him through seven or eight seasons of madmen, and that you're watching a guy who's got a problem. And that's why you're watching it, and you'll see what kind of how he responds to his problem. But if you're in a film, most films, maybe not, dude, where's my car? But you know, most films, like look at something like even alien, right? So what's alien about aliens about a person, there's a monster in space that basically washes out interspecies rape, which is pretty intense when you think about it. But it's a Primal Fear, isn't it? It's the fear of something being cornered by monster and the picked off one by one being the last person surviving. Right? That's a real primal psychological story. It's not as cerebral as something like Remains of the Day. But it is what it is in its in its form. And yeah, but across story, yes, it's a, I would say that, for the most part. And they're all attempts to work out a psychological issue, or at least a psychological issue that's running through it, and then always resolved. And I've written scripts where I've known how to end them, because I actually know the answer to that problem yet. Sure.
Christina Bradley 39:05
That makes sense. Do you think though, the, the, the writer going into that, do they need to be aware of that as they go into it? Or is it something that happens as a sort of a subconscious, there'll be even be aware of that? Because it just naturally happens?
Timur Zobu 39:19
Yeah, so this is that's a really good question. And that's something that happens a lot with students because you depending on where you're at, in your in writing, and also with yourself, and you know, yet that will dictate how you go into a story. So what tends to happen is, and this is it's really interesting, it's really revealing because, like, with my BA students, maybe tunics, yeah, maybe a students, the film school, but certainly adult students, like, I'll ask them to pitch me a story. Whatever, you know, pitch the class, you know, come on with a couple of lines to the module, and I'll get them to pitch into the class and you know, any Well, most people worth their salt can basically go, alright, that's their issue. Oh, okay, they got problem with their dad, oh, that person's got a problem with this, okay? Because they're basically just created, You know, they've created metaphor, they're in it, you're like, Okay, well, there's that. And, but they don't necessarily know that most people don't know that. And but in the process of their story, they will write it out. And they'll know they'll do it and that that will emerge. And that's when you you know, that's when, you know, there's some schools of thought in writing basically, you sit down, iit's like the Angela Lansbury School of writing, where you basically just go sit down and start writing. Like, the paper comes flying out, then you're like look you've written a read a novel. Wow. And it's amazing. all makes sense. We've written a screenplay, and it's our look at It's amazing. And oh, look, it's all about my dad. And you know, you can that's one way of doing it. That's not what I teach. What I tend to teach is, is you plan you develop and you kind of put in the work, you create the foundations.
Christina Bradley 40:58
things you do that is you planning you do develop by taking an initial idea?
Timur Zobu 41:04
Yes. Okay. So I don't I am answering your question is Yeah, so yeah, because what you do is, you take that initial idea. So what I would then do so as a wrtier now, what I tend to do is I tend to think of a thematic question. I go, what do I want to say? What I want to say about people what I want to say about the world? And and then I go one, what would be a good metaphor to do that with what would be a cool premise that I could then like, my story world, that would then dramatise that. But that's not say you can't really and then more of the sort of characters that would come with that, how would this world reflect the theme? You know, but that's, but that's by working at it from a thematic point of view first, but mostly, a lot of people will start off by going, I've got a vague idea about something and then it turns into thing it's going to turn into.
Christina Bradley 41:53
Yeah. And actually, by layering on the story structure, if you have just got an initial idea, and then taking that idea and thinking okay, well, then how do I follow these kind of markers that in itself helps to develop and expand that idea out into something more than what it began as I think.
Timur Zobu 42:11
Yeah, yeah. 100%. I mean, this is the thing that, you know, when we're when we're in class, like, one, something I really like to do is get the students to listen to the moth podcast. Like you heard of the moth podcast.
Christina Bradley 42:26
But I've heard of it,
Timur Zobu 42:27
You should understand, do it while you're listening to go and listen to them off as well. It's fantastic. It's so it's like live storytelling. So people get up in front of an audience, and they tell the true story about their life. And there's only two rules. The first rule is it has to be true. And second rule is it has to be dramatic, which means it has to be structured properly. And there's a reason for this. The reason you stretch things properly is because if you don't stretch them properly, they don't feel like stories.
Christina Bradley 42:53
They don't work stories rights. Yeah.
Timur Zobu 42:55
Yeah. And I when I say when I say work, I always I say feel because you can feel when a story works, because you will get to the end of the story. And if it's a good story, you will have that feeling of, of lightness of catharsis. Do you have friends who are terrible at telling stories?
Christina Bradley 43:11
Yes. And actually, you know what I would almost include myself in that if it's an impromptu story, although I'm very good. If I have to kind of craft a story if it comes to actually just telling a story, for dramatic effect in a sort of a social situation. I'm also one of those people that potentially loses their way slightly.
Timur Zobu 43:28
Right? And do you have some friends who are really amazing telling stories?
Christina Bradley 43:31
Yes, absolutely.
Timur Zobu 43:33
Yeah, sure. Okay. Well, look. So this is one of the exercises we do is with excise do often with the ba's is I basically say, right, we think of your best story. You're kind of like dinner party story. So your best anecdotal story that, you know, you'll get out of jail free card when like you're the most awkward dinner and no one's talking you like, I've got a story that I say tell that story and set the studentt is great because students get to basically tell their best story. Some of them work brilliantly. Some of them don't. And the ones that don't, we then say because we analysed story structure, we say, Well, what beat was missing? And what will turn out, you can then add that beat because that beat you'll see it be clear, because you weren't you will you won't get that feeling you don't know, I know. I just go well, maybe missing this piece. So that's the case, what could you add? And then the students pitch in and they add it and then you get that? And then you tell the story again, this time with that those beats in place, and they go oh, and you get like, Oh, that's a great story.
Christina Bradley 44:29
And that makes sense. Yeah,
Timur Zobu 44:32
Yeah. 100% and this is the reason I'd say listen to the mOth is because it's because the moth true stories, the structured stories, and they're told by every different type of person on earth, right, so you could be an alcoholic Iraqi war veteran. You could be a transgender teen coming out to their parents. You could be a an elderly black woman in America going through it through it through a crisis. You know, it doesn't matter who you are, where you are, when you are, you know, any of these things, the stories that move us are the ones that is universal structure to them. And so it doesn't matter. You know, any of those things matter. Just all you have to do is be human, and hear that structure. And there's a story and it will move you.
Christina Bradley 45:27
So that's answer the question. So one of the things I wanted to ask you, I mean, I feel like story is such a fashionable word now. And it's everywhere. And it's sort of lost a bit of its meaning, because I think it's used a lot in marketing and branding and all the rest of it. But there is a certain focus, I think, these days on telling stories. So the question that I wanted to ask you is, how do we all become better storytellers? So do you think you've answered it by what you just said in terms of, you've got to make sure it's all about making sure the structure of the story is there. And that's what holds the story together and ultimately makes it a story? Or is there some other ingredients that make a really great storyteller?
Timur Zobu 46:04
And I would even say that no, forget about structure, like if you I mean, you're going to need it, it will happen. It'll just happen naturally. The thing is, like, when I first started writing, I just wrote a basic script about Tom Waits with a friend of mine, and and about these two kids who were trying to get to Tom Waits gig in Dublin, and they had a pound and they were gone in the plane to EasyJet gone, gone EasyJet flight to the wrong city or wherever, and ever got really excited. And then producer said to me, all right, if you read in the screenwriting books, I was like, no. To the war word, if you do as I was just, I used to own a restaurant. And basically, I would get home late and just I watched literally every single DVD that was in the local video shop back when we still have video shops. And, and yeah, so I was like, 600 films or something over like the three or four years, three or four years? And yeah, sure. All right, okay. Well, maybe you should reach the screenwriter, but since you gave me the writer's journey, and, and I don't know, if you've read that book, Christopher Vogler, basically like Joseph Campbell, who's a hero of mine, kind of like a sort of condensation of his work HerO of Thousand Faces, and gave him this book and said, Yeah, I've looked at that. And I basically realised that I was already hitting the beats in the story, like all the other kind of classical structure points are taken already, because it felt that's what how a story feels. So you don't have to do you don't have to know about structure, you just know how story should feel. That's why we say just, you know, your way through a story. And so how do you become a better storyteller? Be honest, be honest, be yourself, don't try and second guess the market, just tell a story that, that that feels honest to you and explore it in the best way that you can. Because if you get it right, and you tell the truth, and you tell it, yeah. And then and it resonates, it will resonate with other people, not because there's any magic involved, but just because you're a person, and so everybody else. And so if it resonates, because it's truthful, it'll resonate for someone else. And that will, that will make a good story. And, and I'd also say, writing is rewriting so you know, you're gonna have to keep working at it, and go back, and you're gonna have to make mistakes, and you know, and then you rewrite them and make them and, you know, make them better, you know, conflict is growth, right? So you make mistakes, and then you and then you grow out of it. And, and there's that kind of like cliche where they say that no work is ever wasted. And, you know, it'll come back, it's gonna come back, we'll come back at some point. And actually, maybe you need to get out of your system. And I've had scripts or script ideas that have gone away for a few years, and suddenly I've gone actually do you know what, that'd be like a really good idea now. And and there's something that I it's a really lovely idea, you know, that kind of idea of how books that you read books or films or whatever that you watch, or read or whatever, a younger age, and then you read read them or watch them again, like the age of 25. And they've got a whole load of really different and you read them again in like 35 years, and you're like, why didn't see that before. And they say that that's like, all the complexity of the material plus all the complexity of the reader watcher, and that those two things work together. So actually, as you become more complex, the work seems to become more complex.
Christina Bradley 49:37
I love that. And I mean, when I wrote my book, I had a huge gap somewhere in the middle of a good few years, from first draft to the kind of the final one. And I think that that was the most interesting thing that when I was writing, I felt really in the thick of it in terms of the story that I was telling. And then so much time had passed when I went back to it. I had to completely altered perspective, which was the really nice interplay, I think, between the character being sort of in it, but then the, almost like the older version sat on her shoulder reflecting into it. And I think the book is only the book because of that time and space that happened in the middle, and the sort of altered perspective that came with that.
Timur Zobu 50:18
Yeah. So would you think do you think that maybe you develops like logically like,
Christina Bradley 50:23
Yeah. And the book matured, I mean, it's not a mature book, let's just be honest. But it had more kind of maturity to it because there was an older voice, you know, for the second phase of writing it, which I think was essential.
Timur Zobu 50:39
So do you think the original writer might have been in so? Yeah, okay. So like, you're in a, you're in a certain psychological space. And that book was kind of answering the question, you that you that that person was asking, then, but you'd moved on a long way since then, because you've grown and actually, so then you look back, and you're like, well, that's not quite the question. Those aren't the questions I'd be asking now.
Christina Bradley 51:03
Yes.
Timur Zobu 51:05
So that's what I mean. Yeah. So that's
Christina Bradley 51:09
exactly. That's, that's completely my experience of it. So everything that you've just said, I can really relate to on a very personal level, because whether I knew it at the time or not, that's that's exactly what happened. And it is about that personal transformation, I think, and I love the fact that the the writer is going on a very similar journey as the protagonist in many respects.
Timur Zobu 51:29
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Hundred percent.
Christina Bradley 51:32
So cool. I've got a couple of final questions for you. I would like to know what you think the relationship between creativity and storytelling is?
Timur Zobu 51:41
Oh, and what was the relation? Well, the relationship and creativity in storytelling. So I mean, screenwriting, they say is kind of a craft. That's what you know that people call it craft. And, and so yeah, kind of you. I suppose that's kind of like an old kind of hangover from Hollywood days, where they kind of have these kind of companies, screenwriters will kind of change the typewriters and right, let's drop structure on this and do that. And creativity and storytelling. Well? Why do you think people tell stories? Why do you think the people who tell stories tell stories? That's a good question, that's sort of a throwback to you, Christina? Why do you think people who tell stories around us that you see in the Zeitgeist, why do you think people who tell stories tell stories,
Christina Bradley 52:27
I think they need to tell stories, I think they need to share something.
Timur Zobu 52:33
And why?
Christina Bradley 52:39
I think it's making, I can only speak for myself, I'm trying to sort of put myself into these into that. And I think it's about making sense of the world. For me, that's, that's why I write, it's because I take the experiences that I've had in my life, and I want to do something with them. And, and make sense of them. And, and that's what storytelling is, for me, it's kind of packet packaging sounds like a terrible word. But that's what it really is, is packaging these things up and sort of repurposing them. And to give them a new meaning and a new perspective, I think, or
Timur Zobu 53:11
Yeah, yeah, I get that. I mean, also, they say that's the last thing is you can't make an ought from an is and you know, there's, it's all very well and good to kind of look at things can categorise around us. But actually, but what do you do with that stuff? And your storytelling is kind of the essence is like, What What should I do? What does what do people do in these situations? And so yeah, there's that I mean, back to the question of like, Why do the people who tell stories tell stories I mean, when you look at it in our culture, and like, you look at kind of the the tortured soul, right, the the looking at all the sad stories like the Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse of this world, like, why and what is, you know, what is this thing about being tortured, that comes with, with being a creative? And you know, for me, I think it's about it's about a need to express yourself. Because you've been, because you're trying to make sense of something that's happened to you. And so often, it's about trauma, and it's about, it's about, and, yeah, trying to make sense of a difficult thing. And so again, go back to a thing about talking about the psychological kind of roadmap, I guess, for dealing with things, then you know, creatives tend to be trying to work out what's happened to them, and how to how to deal with, with what's going on. I mean, it sounds pretty morbid and sad. But I think the essence of so the essence of, of storytelling is conflict. And that's why you know, when the BA students come in, and they're all bright eyed and bushy tailed, they're about 19 or 20 years old, and they'll ask me, you know, what, how can I be a better storyteller, and what I would say to them is, you know, Go away and go through some stuff, you know, go and have a breakup, go and you know, experience the death of a parent or whatever it is. And, and, you know, then once you've been through that, they'll give you something to write about. Because it's not just the conflict you're writing about. It's the process by which you dealt with that conflict. That's what you're writing about. That's what the essence of storytelling is.
Christina Bradley 55:23
Thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation, I end on with one question, which isn't necessarily so applicable to us, because we've been talking so much about storytelling, but I'm going to give it to you anyway. And you can see what you want to do with it. What does living a creative life mean to you?
Timur Zobu 57:49
What does living a creative life mean to you? It means? You so do you do? I mean, there's there's different ways of answering this. So so for me being creative is about is about finding meaning, and in your life? And where do you find meaning? Where do I find meaning? It's, you know, increasingly, in the last few years, it's really all about challenges, you know, challenges and service, as well as another thing that's been really interesting, this idea of serving people around you. So I'm kind of, I'm really interested in kind of, in, like, people around us and your spirituality and Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell, you know, I started off with, you know, with, with Campbell, and Juergen storytelling, and then I realised that I've been teaching these guys, you know, stuff that they've been talking about. And then I've delved into even further. And,you know, so the idea of service, you know, what can you put back, and I'm lucky enough to be able to do that creatively. So going into the prison as part of this part of, of giving back. And, and, you know, I think I think finding meaning is found the working edge of what you can tolerate, you know, the edge of your comfort zone, you know, that's the working edge, and you all the time, you're trying to push that your comfort zone, just that little bit further out. And, you know, times that I came out for prison. And you know, where one of the students approached me at the end to say, Sorry, I didn't participate that, that well, it's just I can't read or write. And then looked at me to say something for some guidance. And me realising that there is a person here looking to me for guidance, like I'm the one who's gonna be able to say something and realising I have to say something and then go, Well, okay, that's not a problem. You know, this is a visual medium. So you don't need to necessarily be able to read or write that well, that you can work with images. And there's a way that we can get around that soon. And he's like, what's like come to the next session as I absolutely should, you know, and then walking out of that prison and going, I feel like head expanding Wow, okay, so I'm in a pretty lucky position, you know, those people here who can't read or write, and they've ended up in prison at the age of 19. And, you know, that's a whole different perspective. And, you know, I'm lucky enough to experience that and to have you know, to understand that having that kind of experiences is valuable. So, what is living a creative life? I don't know if I've segwayed away from it too much, but I don't know. I'm it's about finding meaning. And, and then, you know, applying that to everything around you, I guess.
Christina Bradley 1:00:37
Now is is the question really nicely? It's a hard one it's a hard one that was so fabulous Thank you so very much if people want to work with you I know you do. You're doing online screenwriting courses How do people find you follow you?
Timur Zobu 1:00:52
Right cool. Yes, so my company is called life in the story and if you want to find me I'm an acting also booty I am Timur Zobu on Instagram and I've just got a new website called under the handle is www.online screenwriting school.com. So it's easy to find and and we've got a new 12 week screenwriting course starting on Wednesday the 7th October and and then beyond that, we've got a structuring TV episode workshops coming up in October as well as a practical directing workshop coming up with Drake's Justin track gone. And yeah, so we've more workshops, more courses, running online. So you can you can from anywhere in the world. Get in touch and and join in.
Christina Bradley 1:01:40
That's amazing. And we'll put all of that in the show notes as well so that people can look for them there to find your website and things Timur, thank you so much. I've loved this conversation just on a really personal level. It's blown my mind is I could talk about it all day. So thank you for being a guest. I hope we get to do this again at some point.
Timur Zobu 1:01:58
Thank you for having me. It's been great. Thank you