Christina Bradley 00:00
Issie, Nat, so great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. You're obviously the founders of Ruben Feels, you've got a really great mission statement, which is to get the world playing. So I'm going to hand over to you to tell me all about and the listeners all about Ruben Feels, what you're up to, and what the business is...
Issie Soden 00:20
For sure, and we're very pleased to be here. Thank you for having us. And as you say, we are Rueben Feels. And we're an immersive storytelling company founded nearly 10 years ago, and our mission statement is to get the world playing. And so we are commissioned majoritively by commercial clients, to tell their story, essentially, and we take the central tenant of any brand, or client and turn it into an immersive world, and their consumer, their target audience become our players in a story that we make this book for them.
Christina Bradley 00:59
So, I mean, it's immersive storytelling, essentially, and are you working predominantly with actors?
Issie Soden 01:08
We'd say performers, actors, dancers, that's our kind of core ensemble that we have. Um, you know, we've been known in the past to work with characters. So you know, our kind of recruitment policy has always been to do a kind of loose CV check, I don't even want to look at a CV, actually, you get people in a room and you see how good they are at playing, how good they are listening, how good they are storytelling, and, and we've had amazing experiences with people who are non performers actually, sometimes they can give the most truthful performances.
Christina Bradley 01:45
And so for people who don't really know, because obviously immersive theatre for me, I've actually worked with you guys, so I'm very familiar with that term. And I understand how it works and what it looks like. But I'm just thinking about listeners who maybe aren't so familiar with that term, who haven't actually experienced it firsthand. So if they are at an event, for example, and they are just one of the crowd, what what would an immersive theatrical piece look like? What could they expect? Or maybe wouldn't be expecting?
Issie Soden 02:12
Yeah, expect the unexpected, I think. But to break it right down. So immersive theatre is a kind of evolved form of theatre. But then some people would say that Shakespeare was like nailing this back in the globe. But essentially, you've taken away the fourth wall. So in a typical theatre, you've got the world of the story. So there's a stage and the the actors are integrating with one another. There's a fourth wall that separates the audience from that world. In immersive theatre, that fourth wall is lifted and the audience become characters in that imagined narrative. And they're part of that story world. So essentially, it's breaking the fourth wall, it's giving you agency to become part of the narrative of that story. And in the work that we do, we try and get our audience to be actively dictating the way that the story goes through their actions.
Christina Bradley 03:12
Do the people attending the event who are involved in this experience, are they aware that the story that's unfolding around them is make believe? Or do they think that they are caught up in some real event
Issie Soden 03:24
Very often, they have no idea they're attending an imerssive event and you know, it's something we have to get over the line with the client, but the thing that we're so in love with is that point where the real world and the story worlds kind of merge and melt together. And to give you an example, we do a PR launch and you're picking up journalists who flown in from, you know, Europe worldwide. They're in their black cabs with a little suitcases. And we hijack the black cabs and redirect them to an underground car park where they become part of a big was a save the planet rally. And they, you know, the PR woman runs them out of the car. And it probably takes, you know, five minutes for them to realise that this is staged and that they're in another reality. But you know, there's this magic moment where you want to take them unawares, which for us is facilitation of them kind of getting over the wall of fear as we describe it into a playful state where they're ready to come along on that fantastical journey.
Christina Bradley 04:36
So that was actually my next question. How willing are people to be transported into this completely new realm? Is it something that they resist? Or are they quite quick to kind of like play along?
Issie Soden 04:47
It's a beautiful question, and I think the answer is totally unwilling and totally willing, Oh, I love that.
Nat Marsland 04:53
There's a spectrum of like, we don't force anyone to do anything that they don't want to do, but it's very much and again, talking about the actors and the kind of people that we employ. They're so sensitive as to how they approach our audience. So yes, of course, you want as many people to get involved with possible because that builds up the world. And then when everyone's on the same page, it's just magical. But it is a scale of totally immersive and then watching from afar, I think that's still part of it.
Christina Bradley 05:25
Right, because people can still really sort of get the enjoyment from the experience still enter into it within their own sort of comfort level, I suppose without having to push them too far out of it so that they actually sort of reject it, I guess that's quite an important aspect.
Nat Marsland 05:40
Especially if they're new to the immersive, you know, world or that that arena of play, because they might be used to that they expect that spectator side of things, but yeah, hopefully like is he said, getting them over that wall of fear and getting them to play. That's, that's key. And if they can do that for the first time, or like their 10th time, then that's amazing.
Issie Soden 06:02
The thing I described is that, you know, people sort of come to us and say, Well, I can understand that might work for, for example, like this, this audience, but it would never work for this audience. And the thing is, and the way I said it, like everyone is willing, and no one is willing, at the same time, none of us want to get it wrong or look stupid. And so few of us, are kind of instinctive performers, actually, it's like, oh, no, I'm not. I like, like when we're kind of taught not to throw our hat in the ring anymore for fear of looking silly or messing up. So we all have built up those kind of walls. But inside that wall, every one of us had a little kid who ran round playing make believe, who, you know, instinctively said yes, and, and played beautifully. And, and I feel like so many of us have, have locked ourselves out of that little, little, childlike, playful person. So giving people the keys, you know, if you can get them over the wall of fear and say, look, it's totally safe. And actually, you'll look more silly if you don't do it than if you do give them licence then to run around in this kind of world that we all left behind too long ago. And and you know, it's giving people permission and everyone says yes. Oh, that's so powerful, isn't it? And do you think that that's the main reason why people have that resistance in the first place? Is because it's fear of looking stupid and being judged? Do you think that's one of the main factors? Or is it something something else? I mean, I would say, God, they're getting things wrong. It's like the number one inhibitor in life full stop you know, from my experience,
Christina Bradley 07:53
that you actually only kind of build up I think, as you get older and become an adult, right? I don't think you've got that issue as a child, which is why you're so willing, as a child to just run around and go for it, because you're not thinking about the external world. You're just caught up in the moment.
Issie Soden 08:07
I mean, at the risk of, you know, blowing my load too early. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, like, you know, that the children being curious and faithful. And then suddenly, we go through this very necessary shift into like, Oh, hang on a minute, there's a right answer. And the moment that you introduce even the concept of a right answer, you move from curiosity to like, the risk of getting things wrong, is so you know, that just closes down and can become debilitating. You know, you you move from the state of going, why, why, why, why, why. Hello stranger in the sandpit come play with me to suddenly like, I'm not going to reach my hand of friendship out for fear of rejection, and I'm not going to put my hand up in class because it could be wrong, and everyone could laugh. And, and suddenly, you know, you get into that, like, isolating pattern of, of the risk of getting it wrong, and we spend... You know, that's a shift into adulthood. I think.
Christina Bradley 09:11
I think it is. I think it is. Yeah.
Issie Soden 09:13
Yeah. You know, I think the root out of that is to returning into that playful curiosity. You know, that's what keeps us kind of away from fear and even like, not that it didn't make fear disappear. It just becomes a less interesting option, like be playful and curious, rather than fearful and quiet.
Christina Bradley 09:33
Yeah. Yeah. I haven't looked at it like that. And that's absolutely true, isn't it? That's very uninteresting to take that stance, even if that's instinctively what you feel like doing. That's not going to lead to the most interesting outcomes.
Issie Soden 09:44
No, like there is a full stop that's a no like you block yourself and you do that yeah. And you know, I think our work amazing, you know, from beginning to end from the commissioning client to the actors that that we hire and rehearse and create with to the audience that we, you know, play with. It's all an exercise in inhibiting fear and saying yes, you know,
Christina Bradley 10:13
Yeah. And we're going to get onto this saying yes in a minute. But there's just something else that it just made me think about, which is this whole idea of how we live as adults so much in our heads. And everything is just this real kind of, you know, weighing up the pros and the cons and, and sort of not being able to be in the moment because we're so like, stuck in our head. And I know Nat, this is something we're going to talk about when we come on to movement and the physical expression and how that sort of enables creativity. But I just like to touch will not touch on that. Do you really like to explore this whole idea of, if we aren't putting a full stop, and saying no, then we're saying yes. Which, and you touched on it before Issie, when you said 'Yes. And' which is a core principle of improvisation, isn't it? And I know that improvisation as a process is a lot of what you guys do in the work that you doat Rueben Feels. So can we talk a little bit about that and how improvisation comes into your process.
Nat Marsland 11:12
So well, in the rehearsal room, improvisation. So it even begins with the casting and how we smell the people that we want to engage with the project. Because with immersive theatre, obviously, we're working with and with an audience here, and they're feeding into what the experience is as well. So improvisation throughout the whole piece is is really key. And improvisation means listening, most importantly, to what is going on. So it's not waiting for your turn to speak. But you really have to listen to and engage because things are going to change, things are going to move, people are going to make offers. And so when we're in the devising process, right at the beginning of you know, we have the brief and we're taking it off the page, and we have to improvise and and really rely on the intelligence and the playfulness of our our actors and the people that we've got with us to go on that journey as as well. So yeah, improvisation is not for everyone either like this, this immersive theatre arena is not, not every actor enjoys playing like this. Like they like to have the script, they like to be
Christina Bradley 12:30
The rigidity. Yeah. Yeah.
Nat Marsland 12:32
So it's really, really just going to be open. And again, like, I'm okay with failure, okay to just throw ideas in the pot and see where it goes. And the more we hold that space and keep that, that rehearsal space safe. And it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay, just to just go for it. Yeah, yeah, improvisation is really key to Yeah, making the end piece, The point where you say, improvisation is not for everyone. There's an amazing at, like, that's so true and so false at the same time, because, you know, and like, professionally, some performers say, Look, my job and role is to interpret the beautiful words of of a writer. And that's it and they live, they live in that space, and this kind of improvisations not for them. But at the same time, what we say as a company, is that very existence is improvised. Right? You know, there is no script to life, there is no dress rehearsal, you don't get to, like, say cut, and let's just take two on that. So, you know, part of kind of the core values of our company is this lesson that we've inherited from improvisation from the rehearsal room. And it's a set of rules that govern improvisation. And these are by no means, you know, cooked up by us. They were, you know, thought up centuries ago when this was all born. And but they're, they're like a golden set of rules that we live our life by. And that's, like, inherent in our kind of core values as a business. But when we go out and talk to new clients, when we, you know, introduce ourselves at agencies or have creative meetings, and we stick these on the wall and say, you know, right, this is what we're going to live by for the next hour. And it's about improvisation. It's about creativity. It's about broadly, it's about having a non hierarchical structure to kind of come up with ideas.
Christina Bradley 14:41
Mm hmm. And are you able to how many did you say there are these rules?
Nat Marsland 14:49
Six
Christina Bradley 14:49
I think you kind of touched on them, but are you able to actually share them? Because I think that that would be so useful, because I think I think the thing that can happen with improvisation, is that people are very afraid of it. I'm not talking so much about performers, I'm just talking about the rest of us as a general body of people, I think we hear the word improvisation and like, Oh, god, this is potentially risky or uncomfortable. And we sort of step away from it. And actually, I think what you said Issie is so important, because actually, our entire life is just one big improvisation. And we have to embrace it. And we should embrace it and experiment and play because that's where the fun comes. That's where the beauty comes. So I'm just wondering whether people are listening to this. They're like, okay, I kind of get that, but, but how do I live by that? How do I really step into that? So I think hearing what these these rules are, would be really enlightening, actually, for us all to, to be able to sort of tap into that.
Issie Soden 14:58
Well, I'm so ready.
Christina Bradley 15:46
Tell us, share the wisdom.
Issie Soden 15:48
Okay. The first one is to play which is, you know, apt, and the magical thing about player just dwell for a moment. And he's all animals play, right? So you know, if you if you want to look at whether something is necessary look to nature, because because she isn't frivolous with where she puts her energy. So play in nature is about creating social bonds. It's about learning to communicate, it's about learning key skills, you know, you think about like tiger cubs playing with one another, that rough and tumble, they're learning how to, you know, hunt. And, and so, yeah, but but most people kind of grow out of it, but actually, you know, plays this thing. Again, we touched on it before. And it's this vehicle for curiosity. And that curiosity makes sure that when we come across the unknown, we're curious rather than fearful. And you think about what happens in our adult life, we future pace, we backward pace. You know, we're worried about tomorrow we've we've, we've made this mistake in the past, and we're so rarely just present. In the moment. Exploring and play is just an absolute short circuit way. You don't have to go through any rehearse narratives of what if what, but yeah, you just, you just in the moment playing for place fake, and it and it retains that sense of curiosity and fun. So just keep playing everyone, dada. And, and the second role is listening. And I mean, I think everyone is like, yeah, sure we listen, no worries got that. But this, like true listening is hearing with a willingness to be changed by what you've heard.
Christina Bradley 17:40
Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Because that's actually, we can so often think that we're listening. And actually, when you put it like that, that really requires you to lean in and properly Listen, if you're potentially willing to be changed by what you hear. I love that so much. Sorry, I interrupted you. That's because I was listening. Sorry, carry on, Issie, continue telling me about that?
Issie Soden 18:06
Well, I yeah, I mean, I think to reflect on it, you just, you zoom out to like our socio political landscape and you think God, imagine if we could all lean in and listen like that, like how different it would be. And I think it's the tiny act of listening. That would make that profound change, you know, more globally. Yeah, so listening and and I sometimes when I'm in a rehearsal room directing, I get a bit like school, mistressy, and I'm like, two of these one of those. It is, but it's the beginning of everything. It's the beginning of the end. Really, if there's one thing to take away, it's just, yeah, that, that listening, and it's preventative. Thirdly, saying Yes, um, and there's this habit you get into as an adult, kind of, you know, you you think you're playing the role of like, I just going to sense check it for you, or I'm sorry, I'm going to be the bad guy. We've got to talk numbers here or, you know, yes, I hear you. But in the past, you know, there's all examples of how we just block one another. And, and saying yes, is the experience of accepting an offer someone makes? And going beyond that is to say yes, and you accept an offer and then you build on it. Um, and I thin the act of allowing that kind of fluidity between all of the yeses saying yes, and two different things. You move so quickly through the bad ideas that it's actually it's a quicker way of bad bypassing the bad than actually like saying no to them because it will sort them out really quickly. And so accepting the offers that people make I look at, Nat and I both have kids who are about the same age two and a half, three and a half. And then mode of play. There's no content, right? There's no verbal content, really. But you watch them make offers to each other. And it's as simple as you know, they'll say, Tutti Frutti and the other one will go Nutti Gooti And that's it. And it's like, you know, they have they like peeking, they've gone off on this, like joy, just rocket. And, and it's just that they have made an offer and accepted it and built on it. And that is that is the building block of our entire sophisticated adult world. It's just that make an offer accepted, build on it. That's it.
Christina Bradley 20:45
I think that's so important. And I guess that's really one of the main keys with the work that you do. Because if you are blocking each other all the time, it can't go anywhere. It's just again, as you said, at full, full stop, right? So actually, by by saying yes, and building on it, you have no control over where things are going to go, but it is going to grow.
Issie Soden 21:08
But that's a brilliant thing as well, like, the idea that you should have control over it. Exactly. Um, it's a it's a lovely point to bring in here. Like the adult brain secretly wants all the control, all control, and driving. And actually, creativity is about letting go. You know, my dad talks about the monkey driving the elephant, you know, so our kind of conscious brain is this, you know, monkey totally on the reins, this way, this way. And there's just this elephant, which is our intuition and our like, animal body just trudging along being like this really annoying monkey on my shoulder. You know, the monkey is like, I got this, you know? So yeah, go down into our elephants. Yeah.
Christina Bradley 21:51
the wisdom of the elephant. Yeah.
Issie Soden 21:54
And number four, is to let yourself fail. This is so massive, isn't it? Because you can't just tell an adult who's lived their whole lives like trying to succeed and never fail? And like failures are our biggest fear, right? And then you're like, let yourself fail. I mean, it's, it's almost too big an ask. So what we, you know, like reframing that is like, don't be afraid of getting it wrong. We touched on it right at the beginning, like, be curious, don't be fearful. It's not about getting it wrong or right. That is not that is not on the radar here. It's about, you know, retaining that curiosity. So somehow, we have to disarm this bomb that sits under all our actions with it, which is this fear of failure? And I think to do that, you have to like latch on to this sense of curiosity and be like, no idea is a bad idea. That's what people said at the beginning of the meeting, and then they like, you know, and then so quickly,
Christina Bradley 22:54
yeah, they pulled all the ideas apart. Yeah.
Issie Soden 22:59
But to truly live by that letting yourself fail is to not dismiss anything that you or anyone else has to offer
Christina Bradley 23:05
And I think also To that end, as well, your point Issie is so spot on, if it feels too big, this idea of like, you know, be okay, failing. It's like, I don't know how to do that, because we're so preconditioned to actually not want to fail. But I think it can be quite interesting to look at the idea of, what if the were no, right? or wrong? What if that didn't even exist? And then what does that enable you to create? If it's if nothing can be right, but nothing can be wrong, you can just fully sort of sink into play, I think. Yeah.
Issie Soden 23:41
Yeah, exactly. And the fifth one there. Because that's massive, isn't it? It's like all you've just broken down my entire life structure, you know, in my brain, like, How could you do that? But this isn't what we're what we're prescribing is not like, Oh, it's just a free for all, just be your magic, hippie, child self. It's like, no, there are rules. These are the rules. It's just that the rules that you live by in that other world have been replaced by these rules. And they're as important and there is militantly enforced, and you must honour them. We're not talking about being like a free flow, you know, just the blank white page in front of you. That's not how creativity works in our experience at all. You set a new, you create a new set of rules, and you live by them diligently. And you call each other out on this. So the lovely thing about a rehearsal room is that you have a director who, you know, in, in our way of working the director as a kind of third eye that would call out the instincts of any player in the room. You know, it's not a kind of execute my vision. It's like facilitate this group vision. So You know, in life where you think, Oh God, I was really closed down then or this person seems to be peddling an agenda, or why is this person constantly got the talky stick, you know, in the rehearsal room, the director is calling that out, you know, they're playing referee. And these sets of rules facilitate each person to be that referee, and to go, you know, you can't tell your boss that he doesn't listen. But you could actually go, I'm sorry, you just blocked that idea that that person just often and it's free, you know, so suddenly, you are creating this kind of third, you know, this third party that can kind of adjudicate a level playing field. So let these rules be that kind of adjudication. And number six, which I had this, I really read this yesterday, can you imagine, like for the billionth time, and it had this whole new meaning to me, and it's like, relax, breathe, and have fun. And I think when I first laid out these rules, you know, terms of people, that's the one that would be like, oh, throw away, you know, have fun guys, and, but actually relaxing, and breathing and having fun, you know, that breath. And it almost to me at the moment is one of the most important ones. And we work a lot with with breath in our in our rehearsal process. You know, if you ever want a room to come together, you just get them to shut their eyes and breathe. You know, if you need a moment to calm down, shut your eyes and breathe. So you know whether this is quite a personal one, but make sure that you're in that space of like, giving yourself that like breath, life, life affirming, life giving breath, relax, breathe, and have fun.
Christina Bradley 26:54
I love that that's all so powerful, and really applicable, as you know, in terms of how people can really apply this to their own life. It's, it's so relevant. I'm really curious to know what the responses of people in that meeting room? Because I imagine in the rehearsal room, performers are very, like they're in their flow, this is kind of second nature to them. What's the sort of journey that people go through in a in a more corporate environment? When you lay out these rules? Where do they start? And where do they end? How does that meeting look?
Nat Marsland 27:27
It's quite amazing. Actually, I can think of one particular one we went to, are all sat around in quite a small meeting room, you know, the table takes up most of the room. And Issie he wrote down the rules about write this is this is it, these are the rules that we're going to adhere to, and quite a corporate client, however, we got up, we started with groovement, we started with some movement, there was some laughing and giggling. But you know, we were breaking down that initial, not hierarchy. But that normal process of what a meeting is, and how you approach a meeting.
Christina Bradley 28:09
is quite disruptive, right to come in and have that those set of rules, it's quite disruptive, it's not something that people would be familiar with, and it would be immediately taking them out of their comfort zone and throwing them into a whole new world.
Nat Marsland 28:20
And it's almost like we don't have time for that kind of thing. But actually, that gets you to the kind of crux of the creativity and the playfulness. And they it's an education a little bit because then they know how we roll. And yes, and so we're not coming into we're coming into their world, but we have our world. And this is us. And that's you. And let's meet together. And yeah, let's collaborate and play. And yeah, see how this goes. It's quite fun, we are a little bit disruptive rougues.
Issie Soden 28:49
I think that's such a good point Nat that like, people go, Oh, we don't have time for this silly stuff. And then you're like, I promise you this 45 meeting 45 minute meeting will be 45 minutes, and you will get everything you need done. Because you know, you take three minutes to set something up at the top, and you kill so much like fat. And in the meeting. I'm not sure we're talking about the same one, Nat but I mean, there have been so many moments where everyone freezes in terror. Like no, no, no.
Christina Bradley 29:21
But also because I'm there in front of their colleagues, right. So it makes it even worse. It's just like, oh God, now I'm going to be embarrassed in a professional capacity. This will never do.
Issie Soden 29:28
And then I think you do that, like you know everyone's sniggering and you're like, it's great to laugh, let it out. And they're all like, Oh, God, I feel so weird and I'm back at school and I don't know what's going on, but I can't because you're like 1000 emotions, and then you settle them back in their show and then they're like, thank god, I survived. But people have come to us afterwards and been like, we've we've never, we've never worked like that as a team. And, you know, people are like, you know, can I can I can I use those? Can we just you know, and you're like God? Yeah,please do? I don't know if they do, because I think it takes courage initially to set them up. It's like, I think the hardest thing is giving yourself permission to use them. And once you're in like the such a helpful framework, but doing yourself that favour in the first instance,
Christina Bradley 30:19
Nat you touched on it before. And and also Issie, with talking about breath. And actually, that requires you really to become aware of your body. And Nat you mentioned groovement, which I want to talk about. So I'm really interested in how our body and movements can actually play its part in the creative process, and whether there is a connection. Because I think so often, creativity can become quite a heady sort of process. And we entirely forget about our body. And I'm just wondering whether the incorporation of our body can actually facilitate creativity.
Nat Marsland 30:54
Mm hmm. Well, my background is as a dancer, so my approach to creativity has been the more physical first, but with Yeah, exactly, like, we can totally get into our heads and think that's where it has to start and end up there. But it's really important that we just shake that out. And we do get out of our heads and into our bodies, where it's, it's more instinctual where we can feel more where we can just read a room or for example, if it's like a, in a corporate setting, like there's ways of being in the body, for when we're in the rehearsal room, but again, with we're talking about this relationship with like life with to get into our body and out of our heads more, you're just more aware of your surroundings, the way you connect with people. So even in meetings as well to be in your body and just settled and open and available. It's it's really vital. I mean, obviously you can't have you don't have one without the other. But just being in your body allows you to just get a sense of where you are. Yeah, with yourself. And then you it's kind of like I see it as like these these circles that yourself and then the people next to you your environment, what's going on outside. So yeah, it's quite it's it's a massive topic actually about to about understanding your body. And yeah, just getting out of their heads so much. It's it's almost a relief to get out of the head and into the body.
Christina Bradley 32:30
Yeah, absolutely. But I also it sounds something because we're all very familiar with our bodies. It sounds like oh, yeah, well, I've got that awareness. I'm imagining that most of us don't actually have that level of awareness.
Nat Marsland 32:42
The awareness is maybe here?
Christina Bradley 32:45
Yeah, exactly. around our head,
Nat Marsland 32:46
yeah. into our boots into the grounds.
Christina Bradley 32:50
And it's how do you create that sort of sort of awareness beyond our current awareness, I suppose, just to try to explain that a little bit better. So we're all you know, we're in our seats, and we're all feeling our bodies, but how do you then take it to the next level where it does become that sort of ripple effect, as you were saying, where you're so aware of your body? It's then you're aware of your body in this space? And then the wider space and the connectivity between other people? But how do you begin that process of really like dialling into your physical being? Yeah, it's, um, so in a in a sense of whether we're in a rehearsal room or even in one at one of our meetings, it's just starting, simply, so you might start, okay, so we're sat like we are right now, just get a sense of your feet touching the ground. And you're just bringing that awareness in and you readily use, you scan through the bodies as an example of one way to kind of bring awareness into the body. So there's, you're not going to ask anything too, asking too much. It's just like, let's think about your feet. Think about how your feet feel in your shoes. Just think about your ankles, move your ankles around. And gradually, you can just build up and through the body. Just what is it capillary action, I think it's like a man drawing water up. It's like, you're gently colouring it in, you're drawing that energy, drawing that awareness until you come all the way up here. And it's quite amazing how you like, get a sense of yourself and not just the front either or, you know, like you see us as our front. But really importantly, what's happening behind us We are all about like, the back, the back the back back. So so much what's happening to your right side, your left side what's happening above, but it's that gradual as say if I'm leading a session or whatever, just guiding gently, gently guiding through that process of Now think about this. Now think about this without putting too much of my imposing too much of what I'm going through, but yeah, that gentle guide because some people have never done that before. And they're like I don't I don't. Oh, yeah, of course. I can just think about my hands and there they are. I can feel my hands. I wriggle my hands there. They are That's a perfect, that's the perfect answer. Because I think that's the thing, isn't it? We've only got the awareness to which we are aware, you know, it's like we're aware of our body because we've got our body right there. But actually, it's not until you start thinking and bringing that awareness to the sort of more specific areas in your body that you're actually creating that that wider, awareness,
Nat Marsland 35:21
Your, your breath as well, obviously, it's not outside, it's the inside it's Yeah, it's many facets, many. Yeah.
Christina Bradley 35:30
So in the rehearsal room, where you're starting to do this work with your performers, what sort of transformation takes place, when when they really start to get into their body? Does it, how does that enable the creative process would you say?
Nat Marsland 35:42
It's so magical. Everyone comes in from their, you know, they're late, or they're like this has happened, had a fight with my partner or whatever. And that has to be left outside the door. And, you know, we just really have that contained in the rehearsal room, it's a sacred space. So protective of that space, because we can't ask what we ask about people without having that really tight. And so yeah, we you know, we set it out, we have our Atmos, we have the music on. So everyone's like we're in, we haven't got time to like, mess around here. For a start, we just don't have the luxury of that. So we get straight in there. And it's, it's a, again, it depends also like reading the room at the time. So you might need a more energetic warmup or more of a kind of, Okay, we're going to come into it a bit more gently today. But ultimately, by the time we've been working, like, from the individual getting into the body, then we open that up to Oh, now see, as you pass people in the room, like, just be aware of that connection, when you walk through the space, be aware of your relationship with what's in the space, see the colours, so we have this whole process of really becoming the most available vessel. So by the time it's like maybe it's might be 15 minutes that we have half an hour, an hour of this preparation, by the time we go, Okay, let's start let's begin devising, we are all connected, we're on the same page, we've created an energy in the in the space. And yeah, after work, play, off we go.
Christina Bradley 37:27
That's interesting. So it's what you do at the very beginning of your process to warm up to get everybody primed and ready for play
Nat Marsland 37:35
In the rehearsal always. And when we're on site as well, super important, because there's so much going on, on an event, obviously, it's mental. And again, we have no time to do anything. But we are so adamant, again, about we have to hold our ship tight, you know, to make sure that our players are safe, and that they can go out there and just be really comfortable. Everyone's had that connection. And it's amazing what we can achieve from having like, maybe we might have seven days rehearsal, and then it's, and that's like a, that's a good amount, you know. So we've got this really short time to bring everyone together. So when we're on site, we're in, you know, spread out through the audience, there's always that connection between everyone
Christina Bradley 38:26
Holding everyone together, even if there's lots of people in between.
Nat Marsland 38:30
Exactly. So that work that from when we first begin, it kind of it just really helps to build that connection. And that that team, the trust, and so yeah, so many things to kind of have that company out there, because they are on the front line as well. So I think that relates to Yeah, I know, in a meeting as well, it's like you're on a level playing field and you're like listening to each other, you're, again, it goes back to listening as well, physically listening to each other.
Christina Bradley 39:03
I think I think the other thing that it made me think of that I think it kind of goes back to is this idea of being in the moment, you know, you have that awareness about not only yourself in the space, but the actual space and other people in the space and the relationship with the other people in the space immediately forces you to get out of your head and into the moment which kind of touching on where we started is, is kind of one of the key mechanics of play. So all of these things, I think you can start to see how interconnected they are.
Nat Marsland 39:34
Yeah,
Christina Bradley 39:35
it's really, it's really amazing. And I think that that looking at your process is fascinating how I think we can all apply that, you know, if we're working on a creative project, I think probably the one thing that we forget to do, well, probably we forget to do many things. But the one thing that could really help us is actually before we begin a little bit like what you were saying to create that space to get centred is to incorporate some movement into that I think that that's Really interesting.
Nat Marsland 40:01
And it doesn't have to be anything wild and crazy. It could just be like, you know, just a little shake like animals in the wild. You know, they shake off any stress,
Christina Bradley 40:09
Right? So something even quite small could could do it. And it's something disturbing the energy, isn't it and creating a new energy
Nat Marsland 40:17
Shakin it up. Letting it out releasing it, you can go into the bathroom in the cubicle and just make noises.
Christina Bradley 40:24
And is that that's interesting. So putting sound with it. Is that Is that helpful or...
Nat Marsland 40:28
Definitely yes, yes. Breath, like vocalising pause, sound, whatever, just to kind of release and reset in a way. making weird sounds. That seemingly weird stuff? Yeah, isn't what is playing is this place play.
Christina Bradley 40:45
And that's a really small way of actually getting comfortable with feeling uncomfortable, you know, because if anybody listening tries this, to just really Shake your body up and put some vocalisation to it. I think you're gonna feel really awkward at first. But that's a really good kind of testing the waters of how you can start getting comfortable being uncomfortable,
Nat Marsland 41:02
I think. Yeah, I think movement. And it's not it's not mainstream, but people are more aware, there's so much out there now, like bringing awareness into the body and the mind, and the soul and breath work. So that's really exciting.
Christina Bradley 41:18
I think that's so true. And I think there is that awareness, which is amazing. And it is so linked to well being, I don't see it as much with the link to creativity, which I think is really interesting, because I do think there's such a strong connection, and that I think sometimes gets bypassed. So I'm really pleased that we're covering it now. Slightly tangential, but something that came to me when you were talking before, I'm just really curious, when you guys are on site with your with your team, and you're doing a show, sometimes they're one off performances, but there's others that you do and then and then repeats for people going to one of your events or experiences, would they get the same thing twice?
Nat Marsland 41:55
Well, it's crazy, because we don't get a rehearsal with the audience. So the first time is the only time generally. So yeah, usually it's like one night only. You guys got to see what happens and just have faith that we've done all the work we can do. We've done everything. Now we need the audience because we can't do anything else without them and so sometimes we might be able to do a little test with a few people. But yeah, again, there's that magical moment of having the audience in there. But yeah, we get to do it, you know, twice in a row two or three nights, then yes, we can tweak things, and we do in areas, but um, yeah,
Issie Soden 42:36
We have also done kind of longer runs of things when we did the last dance for a month or become the night for about a week. And as Nat says, like, does this massive, arbitrarily we say like 90% of this is from our audience. And so, you know, the majority of our work is an unknown until it's in front of an audience, which takes such courage from the commissioning client and from our actors. So
Christina Bradley 43:05
And from you guys as well, to trust that that's going to actually work because until as you say, until you put it out there and you're actually with the audience, you think it's gonna work but it's live, right? So there's Yeah, it's nailbiting.
Issie Soden 43:18
It's like an it's an addictive, right. I'm shaving years off my life. But it's worth it. Because the stories that we create a structures to hold an experience, and for our audience, so they're the ones who go on the story journey. And it's their interactions with our characters with their key stories with the kind of, you know, we talked about within each scene, you know, there are kind of structures you will go from A to B in this scene and your character journey across the entire story is this and your character journey across the scene is this and your character journey across this conversation is this. And so, and then amongst all of that, who knows what anyone is going to throw at you. And that's where, you know, our job in rehearsal is one to really nail the character and intention of each of our performers. So they know what they would say, to whatever anyone says to them, you know, they don't know the line that they're going to respond with. They know how they would instinctively feel should anyone approach them with anything. So it's like really deep level character work and then understanding this kind of arching structure. So that we will be able to guide the audience through the story, whatever they offer us, but ultimately, in every single moment, we're responding to the audience's offers. I mean, yeah, absolutely. Who knows what's gonna happen, and then we're also like, absolutely suckers for punishment, like we talked about the joy of like the melding of the reality and the non reality, one of our favourite pieces ever. We did in the streets of Soho, across like five different venues, including car parks and took tooks and ending up in the bar. You know, but like, you know, like groups of people would be left on a street corner to be approached by another actor who, you know, was looking for looking for their car, or, you know, asking for spare change on the corner. And each one of those would weave and, you know, be somebody carrying our audience on that on that journey. And you know, one night occupy London did a mass protest. So like we're okay, the riot is coming down half feet by us, do you want to stop the performance? Or do you want to keep going? I'm going, keep the performance goin let's just work round this enormous protest? Yeah, whenever one extra step this production?
Christina Bradley 46:11
Oh, my God, that's amazing. And such a lesson in having to improvise. And say yes. And build.
Issie Soden 46:20
Yeah, yes.
Christina Bradley 46:22
Brilliant. Yes. Yes. And let's see how we can manage this one. And I've actually got got one final question about just touching on what you were saying is you do you think the success of obviously, there's many, many components in terms of making one of your productions successful, but is storytelling, the kind of the real bones of it, that you've got to get the storytelling, right first, and then layer everything else on top of that. Yes. Which is why I'm gonna have you back on the show to talk storytelling.
Issie Soden 46:58
My great love and never ending just sort of passion is storytelling, and how deep into our psyche it goes and how it you know, it pervades everything from our sense of identity as a story we tell ourselves, you know, the jokes, we tell one another, the gossip magazines, we read, they're all stories. There's this transcendent thing that stories have a structure across cultures across millennia, there is a beginning and a middle and an end. And the story of Cinderella was told by Walt Disney in the 40s. And it was told 1000 years ago in India, and it was told, you know, and was told in 50 Shades of Grey, like there are universal plots that get issued and reissued through like, just across time and across culture. It is we live within those structures, they help us connect with one another. They help us empathise with one another. You know, there's this amazing thing in our brain called a mirror neuron. Which means that when we hear a story, our brain responds to that story as if we were going on the journey of the protagonist like literally, that's how invested we are. So then he looked at the power of story for us to build, like empathetic bridges with everyone else in the world, like, you know, story is, it's the raft with which, you know, we build this rock the structure, and then we cross the bridges of water to other people's islands, like we literally exist with other men because of stories. And they're just Yeah, they're exquisite. I think they're exquisite. And they're actually really simple. The beginning of introduce the characters, and the scenario in a MacGuffin, the want of your protagonist, you put some trials and tribulations in the in the middle, and then you resolve it, and they get what they want. Or, and they have this kind of transformation epiphany and you and, and that's it. And it's so beautifully neat. And I almost think, you know, in, in a world of chaos, the certainty and neatness of story is what human beings love so much, you know, we can create narratives out of chaos, and we can create certainty and good and bad and right and wrong and keep ourselves safe within, you know,
Christina Bradley 49:31
Well, it helps us make sense, doesn't it have things that otherwise don't make any sense? But we can talk all day about this. So I'm gonna leave it here. But I think that's a really nice kind of teaser for what for what we're going to talk about, but it also I think it really helps when we're looking at the work you guys do. I think that's such an integral part. So I'm really pleased we've touched on it as well. And if people want to work with you play with you, how did how did they find you? What are you up to at the moment?
Issie Soden 49:58
We're sort of recoveringrom from a COVID year, it was looking beautiful and then the slate was slightly wiped, and I think, you know, that was a blessing. You know, I think as a kind of company that's 10 years old to like, step back and go hang on a minute, we have an opportunity to look at what our offering is. So we've certainly done a bit of that. And then ramping back up for a project in the spring next year. So please watch this space. And with just I can you imagine how juicy we are? Stay tuned. Our Instagram, what's the handle Nat?
Nat Marsland 50:40
Raven feels underscore official ravenfield underscore underscore official,
Christina Bradley 50:45
and we'll put it in the show notes anyway, so people will be able to find it. And we'll put the website in there too.
Issie Soden 50:50
Yes, lovely. And yeah, please do I mean, we always love meeting new players and obviously adore commissioning clients, which again, I but also I should mention that we hold workshops, both for performance and non performers, and engaging with the body engaging with creativity, learning how to be more collaborative, so that they exist virtually at the moment, but as and when we find out what the landscape of live experiences look like, we'll be crossing some of those. And so just be in touch on any of those fronts. If you'd like to
Christina Bradley 51:29
Sounds amazing, I end with one question which I'd like to ask you, girls. So what does living a creative life mean to you both?
Issie Soden 51:37
I think living a creative life is being playful. I think it's about the responses you make to every single stimulus, that so it's tiny, it's behavioural, you know, it's not identity. It's not a career. It's not what I do in my spare time. It's the way that you approach the world with curiosity, with a present with a sense of being in the present, and without the fear of getting it wrong. Hmm.
Nat Marsland 52:14
Yeah, I concur. And I would also say, just finding joy in small things and the pleasure in small things and even like being kind to oneself is a yeah, it's there's, there's, it's way more pleasure in the small things than like, expecting this big like, wow, cataclysmic thing to make you feel that over to something creative. It's like it's it is the subtle things add up to the whole.
Christina Bradley 52:44
Perfect. That's a perfect answer. I love it. Yeah. Thank you both so much for being on the show. I'd love this conversation. And I just got so much from it. So I hope all the listeners have as well. And hopefully we'll get to do it again.