Christina Bradley 0:00
Hello, Charlie.
Charlie Haynes 0:02
Hi.
Christina Bradley 0:03
Hi. Welcome to the creativity campus podcast. It's so nice to finally have you here.
Charlie Haynes 0:08
Thank you for having me. It's really exciting
Christina Bradley 0:10
Really exciting. I wonder, obviously, I know what you do. But for the benefit of our guests, and sorry, our listeners, I was wondering if you can just talk to everybody about Urban Writer's Retreat. Because it's such a fascinating concept and business, I would love you to give everybody the lowdown on what it's all about.
Charlie Haynes 0:31
I mean, essentially, what it's all about is helping writers and supporting them so that they can sit down and do it. And that kind of It actually started when I was living in London and struggling with procrastination, and I wanted to work around other writers. So I started doing one day retreats, which is why it's called a writer's retreat. And yeah, since then, it's expanded. And there's various different ways that I support writers, both online and offline. But yeah, essentially, it's all about helping people to do sit down and actually do the thing that they really want to do. Because it's so easy to just put it off, and then keep putting it off and keep putting it off, and then never get around to it.
Christina Bradley 1:11
And that's all the stuff I want to talk to you about today. Because it's so fascinating how, when we want something so much, it seems the hardest thing to actually do. And mainly to get out of our own way. And I feel like we've got so much to talk about on that whole subject. But when you when you say you work with writers, are you working with a whole spectrum of writers? Is it journalists? Is it short stories? Is it novelists? Who's your sort of main audience? Would you say?
Charlie Haynes 1:38
Um, well, so it kind of splits into online and offline, to be honest. So the the offline retreats, the actual physical retreats are for absolutely any writer. And so people come who are academics, journalists, editors, people who want to work on their business website. Yeah, yeah, I mean, people have come doing maths PhDs,
Christina Bradley 2:02
Wow really?
Charlie Haynes 2:03
So not even always technically writing. But you know, all kinds of, but it's about having the time and space to settle down and focus in the kind of in the depths that you wouldn't get to normally, if you're just kind of trying to get an hour here or there babbling about between all the other things that you feel like you should be doing. So it's any absolutely any kind of writer and also, it's completely the spectrum for people who have, I mean, I've had people come who have literally never picked up a pen before. And I've had people come who are multi award winning novelist, so it's anyone who needs to get time and space to write, it's completely bored.
Christina Bradley 2:38
I love that. And I love the idea of just actually creating this little haven or retreats, where people can just focus on their writing on their creativity and just kind of have that time. Because I think that's such a big part of it, isn't it actually carving out that sort of sacred time within your diary, when everybody is so busy to dedicate it to this sort of piece of work or project that's most important to you?
Charlie Haynes 3:02
Yeah. And it is, it's hard to make yourself do that focus as well. And I do. I mean, I would say that it skews more towards creative writers. And my online stuff is more geared towards creative writers, because doing a one size fits all thing doesn't really work. Um, but I think particularly with creative writing, and creative work in general, we always feel like we should be doing the in air quotes, important stuff. So you know, we should be working, we should be feeding the dog, we should be putting our partners and our children's and our parents needs before our own. And it's really easy for us to just let our own creativity, die a horrible death and then be really unhappy. And yeah, so I think that perhaps particularly creative people are in need of that extra support.
Christina Bradley 3:55
Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. Can you just before we dive in to more on that, cuz I have so many questions, I would love to know your own kind of creative journey and are you a writer yourself?
Charlie Haynes 4:07
Mine is very wobbly.
Christina Bradley 4:09
Everybody's probably that's why we do the podcast.
Charlie Haynes 4:13
Yeah, it is. It is. That's true. And so I mean, I would always have characterised myself as a writer. I'm not a published novelist or anything like that. And sometimes we were a bit surprised because yeah, I don't know, I guess I guess they expect you to be but actually, so I write a lot. Sometimes I write fiction, largely for my own pleasure. But also, I count my business very much as a creative thing. So I started it when I was just dying in my last job because it was I didn't have that creative outlet, which was no fault of theirs. They were wonderful. But so there's, there's I think I think of creativity as being much wider than just that. And so yeah, I do write, I do write. And I do write creatively. But I'm sort of coming to, I'm coming to see creativity as a much wider thing in life and see that actually, it's, I guess this is something we'll probably get into later about how what you feel you should be doing. And it's okay to kind of do lots of other things.
Christina Bradley 5:23
Yeah. And I think also the meaning of creativity, you know, it's not just writing, I think, is a very tangible example of a creative outlet. But I think, and we've talked about this before, that actually, it doesn't have to be so obvious is that in many respects, creative life can take on many manifestations from cooking to gardening. And it's the whole raft of things that you don't necessarily need to be just honing in on your craft to be exercising your creativity. I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit?
Charlie Haynes 5:54
Oh, yeah. I mean, anything that you do creatively is good for you as a person and actually, okay, so this is a big bugbear of mine. People think that if they are not publishing books, they don't count as a writer, and they shouldn't call themselves a writer and blah, blah, blah. But if you were swimming, gardening, playing the piano, if you're not growing prize winning squashes or on the county swimming team, or giving Piano Concerto performances, no one would say that you shouldn't be doing it. And I feel slightly going off topic.
Christina Bradley 6:27
No but it's true, it's this whole piece isn't about, you know, it's unless, it's sort of acknowledged globally or against its massive success that is it worth doing. And actually, that's not how, certainly I know, and it's not how we should be measuring creativity, because I think there's a direct correlation between being able to engage in creative activities and our happiness. And therefore,
Charlie Haynes 6:53
Yes, that's where I was going. Sorry,
Christina Bradley 6:55
No, no, I had I knew you're going there...
Charlie Haynes 6:59
It's my creative brain, just losing my train of thought, but know exactly that. And so and, and so actually, you know, I do enjoy all those things. I, I love cooking. And it's one of the great joys that I get to cook for people at the residential retreats. But I've recently discovered gardening, who knew you It's so amazing. Honestly, growing your own vegetables is just the most rewarding thing. I've taken up knitting, you know, calligraphy. I haven't really got into things like sewing yet. But but there's so many different. Yeah, I think all of these things are important. And it's really easy to forget that actually, we, human beings are only where we are because we are creative. And I think particularly now where we feel like everything we do has to be about money, or about achievement, it's really easy to forget that the creativity has to be like you have to have it and you have to allow it otherwise, none of that stuff can happen. Even if you do think those are the most important things which as it happens, I don't.
Christina Bradley 8:02
Right and I think you know, the things that we've just talked about, that you wouldn't necessarily associate as being creative activities, whether that be gardening or calligraphy, or you're just doing for the sake of it, because you enjoy all of those things, I think nurturing your creative core so that when you apply, you know, you go back to sitting down to write your book or whatever it may be, you feel fueled, and you feel ready and in the right headspace. Versus, you know, if all you do is work, work, work, work, work, and then you sit down to write, I feel like that's not going to be the most conducive environement to get your creative results.
Charlie Haynes 8:41
No, it's hard to produce things when you're Yeah, exactly. When you're when you're in when you feel like that. And what is life without joy and creativity? It's i think it's it's one of the main fundamental things that we that we exist for. And so yeah, it's just people need to give themselves space to do it really.
Christina Bradley 9:01
Exactly, which is dovetails nicely into why you've got the retreats is just allowing for that space, which I think is so important. But you said something that's really interesting. I just want to kind of go back to it. About how, obviously, you have created this very successful, wonderful business that helps writers sit down and write. And yet in some ways as a sort of a preconceived idea that well, for you to be maybe legitimate or qualified to do that you yourself need to be a fully fledged published writer. Right. And I did air quotes there because it's like, what makes somebody a writer and what makes somebody qualified? You know, there is Yes, fine, you can be published. But why is that the benchmark that we are kind of measuring our creativity by I just find that kind of strange pressure that we put on ourselves?
Charlie Haynes 9:51
Yeah, definitely. And I suppose part of it is because that is the creative output that we see. And that has inspired us so a lot of us who write we write, because we love books, and we grew up just inhaling these other worlds that people have created. And so yeah, maybe that is partly and also, I think it's to do with validation. So if you have a publishing contract your existence as a creative is sort of validated. It's like your legitimate writer.
Christina Bradley 10:25
Finally it's happened. And it's so funny, it's so funny, because it really doesn't mean that much. You know, I've I've had, as we talked about before, you know, I've been very fortunate in the fact that I have had a book published, but it's still so fascinating, because you, you, yes, you get that sort of external approval, or validation, or whatever it is, we think you're going to get from actually getting an agent and a publishing deal. And then when it comes down to, you know, sitting down with yourself to write the next book, is still just as hard if not harder, you know, it's not like having some form of success, then changes the creative process. You still, I think you said it to me the other day, which was just that was brilliant, you know, you still take yourself wherever you go.
Charlie Haynes 11:09
Yeah, yeah. And I think this isa hard life lesson to learn. I mean, I, I only realised that after I quit my job, and like, move to Bali, which sounds really cliche, but I did it, I did it before without reading Eat, Pray Love and, and, and it was, while I was there, and I was writing, I was writing a novel, and I was sort of trying to write it wrestling with myself. And I thought, well, I've come halfway across the world, and I'm still just the way it was. And then subsequently, having spoken to a lot of other writers about it, so many people are the same. And there are people who have had somebody, a children's author who's really good, who had had 15 books published, she said, I wonder if I'm ever gonna be able to write another word worth reading. And I know another writer who has won awards for her YA books, she's absolutely brilliant. And she was like, I don't think I can write adult books. So the the the insecurities that we have this stuff is about us. It's not we think that the external validation will make it easier. But actually, unless we learn the lessons from it and go, No, look, I am brilliant, I have I have had this validation, then it won't make any difference internally, and we'll still struggle.
Christina Bradley 12:24
Oh, God, I mean, I'm just nodding along with you. Because everything you've just said, just this is so true to me and my own personal experience. And it is it sort of finding that confidence and belief in yourself, where you don't need that external validation. Because if you are going to be so swayed by it, as well, you know, you you create something, you put it out into the world, and then you get the critics on it. And then you're sort of subject to negative reviews, which also sways, you know, your own ability to create, but how do you think, Charlie, how do you think people can overcome some of these sort of creative blocks or these hurdles, where they're standing in their own way, and they are limiting themselves, essentially.
Charlie Haynes 13:05
I mean, I think it's, I mean, it's not sound too dramatic about it, but it's kind of your life's work to change your mind about that. If it's something that you struggle with, not, not everyone does, some people just go and merrily create, and that's wonderful.
Christina Bradley 13:19
I hate those people....That's not true.
Charlie Haynes 13:23
We all need to be them. But um, but I think that you just have to really pay attention to what you're saying to yourself. Because we're always telling ourselves that we can't do things that we're not good at things. And you have to really make an effort to treat yourself like your best friend. Yeah, and you would never speak to your best friend the way that you talk to yourself. And also, I think that any creative work, so whether you're writing or painting or anything else, and you, it's difficult, because when you feel stuck, you feel like you can't get started, but you have to be doing the work to get the impetus and the confidence to do more work. And it means that you get more creative ideas. It so it's either an upward or downward spiral. And you just need to try and do everything in your power to put yourself in a position where you're likely to succeed, rather than where you're battling against yourself all the time.
Christina Bradley 14:18
And I think to that end is baby steps, isn't it? Because I totally agree with you, it's all about taking that initial action. And I think, you know, when you sit down and you think, right, I'm going to write a book page. kind of intimidating. And, you know, I think that pressure that you can put on yourself can actually stop you from ever sitting down. And so I guess it's about taking smaller, much smaller steps that feel more manageable.
Charlie Haynes 14:44
And celebrating them as well. So I think that I think that we feel like unless we've finished it when that goes. Yeah, but actually you know, it's like that thing. The old not particularly funny joke, but how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? Actually, you need to be celebrating yourself for every single bite that you've taken and every small step that you've made, because then you're going to want to keep doing it.
Christina Bradley 15:07
Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think that it's it's such an interesting thing. And this, this whole idea of just feeling overwhelmed, I suppose by the task at hand. And something else that made me think of, is that I think another reason that people maybe struggle is they feel I have to have the answers to everything at the start.
Charlie Haynes 15:29
Oh, yeah.
Christina Bradley 15:29
And, you know, for me, anyway, speaking about my personal experience, I, you know, I love this whole idea, where do ideas come from? And how do we get them? And I don't know the answer, I have my theories. I don't think anybody really knows the answer. But one thing I do know, based on my, my experience is that I never have a fully formed idea at the start. And it's almost like, the only way that that idea ever reveals itself in its totality, is by sitting down to do the work. And through taking action, then slowly, slowly, things come to me that I would never ever have been able to think about and create, had, I tried to have all the answers before beginning. So I wonder whether that's what sort of, you know, creates this fear in a lot of people and this sort of why they're so intimidated is because they feel like they need to have an entire plot before they begin, rather than just thinking I'm going to write and the plot will kind of reveal itself.
Charlie Haynes 16:26
Yeah, definitely. Um, and it's so again, I think it's partly this comparison, like comparison with published novels, because you expect everything, like you feel like you should have everything as beautifully planned out as an actual finished novel before you start. But But you're right, it comes from doing the work, it's, you have to let yourself play in the mud and be really messy. And there's, Oh, I wish I could remember the name of people who did it. But there's a study of a group of students, pottery students, I think they were and they were given half of them were given a task where their end of year exam was based on making the best pot that they could, the other half, they were going to be graded on how much work they produced. And what they found was that the people whose aim was to produce the best pot, most of them only made one pot in the whole time, or year, however long it was. But actually, the people who were being graded on the volume of their work, their pots were much better. And they've done a lot more work. And pot, I think that Christina Bradley 17:28 I've never heard that that's really interesting and it makes a lot of sense.
Charlie Haynes 17:32
And it's, it's because every time we do something creative, every time you sit down and write, it might feel like what's coming out is complete rubbish. And it might be rubbish. But a, you're playing with ideas, and being practising your writing, which is something that I think we all have to do, like, we just, we're always going to be learners. And so you're just getting better, or the more you do, the better we will get. And that feeling of it having having to have it all planned out and perfect before we can start I think stops us from doing more. And if you think about it, if you'd written if anyone had written 500 words a day, every single day for a year. I mean, I think that's about two novel drafts. Imagine how much better you'd be at writing, if you just let yourself do that instead of getting tangled up in, in all the stuff on the internet.
Christina Bradley 18:21
Yeah. And I think so much of it is, comes down to that, you know, the I know that my first draft, I mean, I wrote it and and as I was writing, I think I definitely had moments where I was like, Oh, that's really good. And it was those moments that I kind of appreciated what I was writing, it spurred me on to to kind of keep going. And then when I I kind of finished the first draft was really pleased with that put it down for quite a long time. And when I came back to it, I was just like, this is so bad, it's so bad. And if you were if you were, you know, always going for perfection and always wanting something to be the end result. Without this kind of messy middle, you would just stop there. Because, that that would be the end and, and actually what I learned is that it's the process of doing it that makes you get better at it. Next draft was a little bit better. And then it got all the way to the fact that Okay, we've got to a place where it's fine. But I think you do have to accept you know, they call it an Anne Lamott calls it the shitty first draft and I think Liz Gilbert does as well but it's this you know, maybe just lower the expectations of what your first piece is.
Charlie Haynes 19:34
Yeah, well I call it gloriously craptastic I think
Christina Bradley 19:38
I love that, it's even better
Charlie Haynes 19:39
When you're because actually drafting editing are different skills. They are different jobs and they use different parts of your brain and and that the creation that first draft stage, the idea doesn't exist yet. You don't know the corners of it. You don't know the full extent of it, you haven't explored it and it's like whether it's whether it's fiction or nonfiction. You have to it's like when you're writing essays at Uni, I never knew what my essays were about, until I'd written past what the word count was. And it was only then that I was like, Oh, this is the argument I'm making. And I think it's the same with fiction like you, you can't get a sense of the whole shape of it, until you've let yourself do it fully, and it's gonna be a mess. It's supposed to be a mess, because you're creating something new, it doesn't exist. It's why, why should it be? So? Yeah, gloriously craptastic.
Christina Bradley 20:29
Yeah, that's what we should be aiming for
Charlie Haynes 20:30
That is what we should be aiming for.
Christina Bradley 20:31
And good to set the bar to start with, I think that's great. And also, it just means that, you know, if you have lowered that bar, and it is enough to just think gloriously craptastic, then, you know, it just means that you enter into the spirit of it from a much more playful and relaxed and joyful place, rather than with mounting all this pressure on you, which just takes away from from the joy of the process, I think,
Charlie Haynes 20:58
Yeah, and you can do things like you can rewrite a scene 15 different ways with 15 different outcomes. There's no word police that are going to come and stop you.
Christina Bradley 21:06
There's no right or wrong with creativity and experimentation, and you just have to be open to go in with wherever I think it wants to take you.
Charlie Haynes 21:15
Yeah, and just think about that, think about planning things out. I think that there are definitely stages. And it does depend on the person. Some people do really well, with no planning, some people really benefit from a lot of planning. And I've also met people who it varies with each other. But I do think that, yeah, I definitely think that planning can help and giving yourself some structure and sort of knowing the conventions maybe, like, if you're an artist, you would understand colour theory, that would probably help. So understanding things like plotting novels, that just it not being restricted to them. So you can go, Oh, I'm just going to write and then get stuck, and then go, Oh, well, maybe I actually do need to plan this, maybe I need to have an idea of where I'm going. And then you could go freestyle again, it's I think, yeah, there's no right way.
Christina Bradley 22:09
But I think you're right, you know, with something, if you have a specific goal in mind, you know, and it is, for example, writing a book, there are certain conventions and, and structure. This, I don't want to call them rules, but but there are there are basic principles that you do need to understand that have nothing to do with creativity. Right. They are just that, I think, for me, that that that's more about the craft and honing in on the craft of it. A difference between, you know, creativity and letting your kind of creativity run free, versus actually being able to implement your craft and structure to give a container for your creativity.
Charlie Haynes 22:55
Yes.
Christina Bradley 22:57
So for example, I completely agree, like, if you're going to write a book, yes, you can just sit down and just go for it. But the chances are, you know, when you get to the end of it, you'll come back. And if you've never written a book before you will go. I'm missing some plot points, and I'm missing some, you know, fairly important structure here. Charlie Haynes 23:14 That wouldn't mean that it wasn't worth having done. I don't think.
Christina Bradley 23:16
Exactly, exactly. That's the point. And it's maybe marrying up the two. So I have this question and we've kind of covered it, sort of, but I just want to go back to it. So I'm really curious, because the stat is I think something along the lines of 80% of people think they have a book in them. Yes. Is it? Is it 80%? Or is it even higher? Maybe?
Charlie Haynes 23:40
And I think that the stat is 80%. It's quite an old one. And it's based on the US. But and I don't know that it's been updated since but but it's it does seem like yes, there are a lot of people who say, Oh, yeah, I could write a book, I've got an idea.
Christina Bradley 23:54
And I've got an idea for it.
Charlie Haynes 23:56
Yeah.
Christina Bradley 23:56
And so with that many people who actually think that they have a book in them a, I just think it's because everybody feels like they have a story, whether they've imagined a story or whether they're drawing on their own story. I think as human beings, we have a very innate ability and desire to create and share stories. But also, I'm just wondering, why is that many people want to write it? Why do so few of them actually do it? And I already know the answer to this. Why do you think that is?
Charlie Haynes 24:27
Okay. I think it's a combination of things. I mean, partly, not everyone really wants to write.
Christina Bradley 24:35
And that's interesting. So do they like the idea of it more? The reality of doing it?
Charlie Haynes 24:40
Yeah. You know, it takes a lot of hard work to write a book and not everyone actually cares that much.
Christina Bradley 24:47
And just to share my little tiny story, because I had a long time where I was really enjoying, I didn't do that. It was only when I look back at it that I realised this was what was happening. But I spent a long time talking about the book that I was writing. And, you know, just quite enjoying the fact that Yeah, I'm writing a book. And, and then I had to have a really hard word with myself because I was like, No, I'm not writing. I'm talking about this book, but I haven't written anything in a really long time. And I think there's something in the fact that you can get as much sort of positive sort of feelings from the idea of writing it as the actual product of writing it gives you. So I've heard that to be the case that you it kind of creates the same thing that the talking about it as the actual doing.
Charlie Haynes 25:42
So the dream sustains you.
Christina Bradley 25:44
Yeah, exactly. You feel like you're, you're sort of you are doing it, because you're talking about it, and everybody knows. And so that I think, can end up being something that you just keep, keep going with, without actually doing doing the action. So I totally agree with what you just said. I think that that's probably a really big one.
Charlie Haynes 26:04
That is true. And yeah, I can see a lot of people probably do that. And yeah, I think there's also things to do with things like a lack of feeling like you've got a lack of knowledge or lack of belief in yourself. That's a really big one. And yeah, I don't know if there's lots of reasons that people don't do it. But what I do know is that if people are serious about wanting to be a writer, regardless of how much they're actually doing at the moment, and not writing does make people really miserable. But if you've got those creative urges, and you're not letting them out, and you're not writing, but you're also not creating art, or whatever else it is, then it's Yeah, keep that quite grumpy. Yes.
Christina Bradley 26:52
And do you think people recognise that that's, do you think they recognise that frustration? And they're able to say, I'm feeling this way? Because I want it and I'm not doing or do you think it's a bit more?
Charlie Haynes 27:05
No I don't I don't know that a lot of people do. I mean, I this before I left my job, I just felt a complete gnawing sense of frustrating frustration. I wanted to climb the walls the whole time. I was irritable about everything. And I was miserable. I wasn't doing my work properly, because I was so unhappy. And in the times, when I found a creative outlet for short periods, it was much better. But it wasn't until much later that I went, Oh, you weren't doing creative work? That's why you are so unhappy.
Christina Bradley 27:46
Yeah, that's fascinating. Because that's, that's entirely what I believe in also, why, you know, I set up the creativity campus, because I think there is such a, there's such a need for more creativity in our lives, and for us to be sort of leaning in and trying to live a more creative life in whatever form that takes. But I think it's so important, because there is such a correlation between, you know, creativity and our general happiness and well being. You know, I think that that link is there. If you can find work that actually sustains you creatively, then then even better,
Charlie Haynes 28:20
It's the dream, isn't it? Yeah. And I know lots of people say, I'm not creative. And that's nonsense. Everyone is not not, it's not as important to everyone. I would. I do think that's true. But But yeah, everyone is creative, and everyone should be using it.
Christina Bradley 28:37
Yeah, absolutely. And finding ways of using it, I think, hmm. And what is it this this kind of goes back to what we were saying about external validation a little bit, but what do you think it is that actually makes a writer?
Charlie Haynes 28:54
Oh, that's a loaded one. People have such different opinions about it. And it's interesting, because I think there were a few words and love is another one that I think that it's one word, which is entirely inadequate to express the spectrum of things that it encompasses. Yeah. So love can mean eighty different things. Right. And writer, can I think that because writer is a job, a professional job where people get paid, and it can mean fiction, and nonfiction and all these other things. But it's also the person who writes a journal, just for themselves, or who writes a little story about their cat for their nephew. I think that, that has a lot to do with this thing about permission and not feeling like you're allowed to call yourself a writer if you're not doing it professionally. So to me, I think of writers as people who make sense of the world through writing, yeah.
Christina Bradley 29:54
Yeah and make sense of themselves through writing.
Charlie Haynes 29:57
Absolutely. Yeah. Sense of yourself. Sense of your own experience. So a lot of diaries are doing that. And I mean, some people would love to keep diary and don't let themselves keep a diary for whatever reason, but it's that desire to do it. And the fact that you make sense of the world through writing that is important, because some people just aren't like that. And you know, if you talk about writing to them, they're just like, Oh, right. Yeah, whatever, move on to another subject. And that's not the way their brains work. So, yeah, I don't think it's about you. I, some people think you have to write every day to be a writer. I disagree. I think there are a lot of reasons why people don't write for short or long periods. I mean, you know, I know people who have had many, many books published and said, I haven't written a word for two years.
Christina Bradley 30:43
So that's so interesting, isn't it? Because I think that also comes down to your individual kind of creative process, and how that can sometimes be shaken by looking around and seeing what everybody else is doing and feeling like you're not quite doing what you should be doing or as well as doing. Yeah, everybody else seems to be doing so much better.
Charlie Haynes 31:04
Yeah, absolutely. And oh, can I still call myself this, if I'm not doing it at this very moment, you know, you don't have to be writing every moment of the day to call yourself a writer, it's fine.
Christina Bradley 31:13
Exactly. And it's also like, you get to make up your own rules, and so much, a really good way of doing it is getting up at 5am every morning and writing in the morning. And it's just like, Well, actually, that's great. And actually, that is what I like to do...
Charlie Haynes 31:27
It is a great way, it's a wonderful way,
Christina Bradley 31:30
It's a wonderful way if you're a morning person and your brain works best in the morning, but if you're somebody that's a night owl, and actually, you know, the hours of midnight until three are the times that you you write, perfect, I think it's about finding what works for you. And just doing that and not and not worrying too much about what what everybody else is up to. And and on that same in that same vein, not, you know, some people can write very, very quickly. And some people take myself included, take a lot longer. And then I think sometimes, you know, people are fueled by their creativity. And they do one creative project and build up a lot of momentum. And that sort of fuels their next creative project, and be able to do things in quick succession. Whereas there's lots of other people. And I would put myself in this category as well, I put all of myself into something. And then actually, I do need to take some time out. I don't want to write for a little while, I just want to sort of have a break from it. So I think a part of it has got to be finding your own kind of creative process your own rituals, and really honouring those.
Charlie Haynes 32:35
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, there is such a lot of advice telling you how you should do things, and it's all really well meaning and I think everyone can probably find elements that really work for them. So I'm not dismissing them. But But yeah, absolutely. I think you're right. I think it's about working, working out what works for you. And the thing about times times a day, I think that the people quite often say, Oh, I'm really I work really well, late morning, sorry, early morning or late night. And it's those kind of them I suppose liminal time spaces when nobody else is awake. And there's part of the reason that they work is that there's much less external input. And I think that that is something that is really key to writing at any other creativity, you can't be expected to focus properly. If you're I mean, some people do write books in 15 minute bursts at kitchen tables with five kids running around, I do not know how they do it.
Christina Bradley 33:32
It's amazing, I have no idea how that happens.
Charlie Haynes 33:35
How and I don't understand how they keep it in their heads, but but having if all you're doing is accepting input from outside, so you know, the news or phones pinging blah, blah, blah, all these things, so much information is bombarding us every day, it makes it really hard to get into being in that creative space is sort of outputting is the opposite. And so I think that's where that's why things like those edge times work really well for a lot of people.
Christina Bradley 34:07
Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense. And what do you think? I mean, I've had this where I've been really, really busy and during those busy times, you know, I've longed for basically a lockdown scenario where I would have all this time on my hands to create at will. And then lockdown arrived, which obviously wasn't any of us really wanted. And there I am, in my mind thinking this is going to be such a creative time for me. I couldn't create a thing. I mean, I was planning on partly because go back to what we were saying before about setting unrealistic expectations. I was like, I'm going to write the first draft, the second draft and the final version of my book and get it published within this time, which clearly didn't happen. But I didn't write a word.
Charlie Haynes 34:52
I mean, I've got my head in my hands because this is very familiar.
Christina Bradley 34:57
It's like, in some ways having this just unlimited amount of time and space and almost what you could could consider perfect conditions just became
Charlie Haynes 35:07
Yeah, yes.
Christina Bradley 35:10
My biggest creative block
Charlie Haynes 35:11
But but it's, it's well, okay, so I think at the moment a little bit different because actually we don't we might not realise it but we're dealing with a huge amount of stress from stress stressor and press. And pressure. But I think the same goes when for a lot of people, not for everyone. And actually, I didn't have this problem. But I know a lot of people who have, who have basically quit work, and they've said, I'm giving myself a year to write, and they cannot write a thing, and they do less in that year than they do in the
Christina Bradley 35:43
When they're juggling a million things.
Charlie Haynes 35:44
Exactly.
Christina Bradley 35:45
If you want something done, give it to a busy person. So what's the psychology around that, in your opinion? What do you think it is?
Charlie Haynes 35:51
I think a lot of the time, it's to do with the pressure, it's that it's that you've said, This is what I am doing now. And you know what it? Generally that means my aim is to have a published book, and putting that pressure on yourself, can really, it brings up all of the internal junk and it can really stifle you. But also I think it's having external deadlines and frameworks and boundaries is really useful. Because if you have all day every day to sit there and do one thing, then you're like, Oh, well, I'll do this tomorrow. No, I'm just need to think about it a bit more. And maybe, oh, maybe I'll just rearrange my sock drawer whereas if you're working three days a week, working three days a week seems to work really well for a lot of people because they know that they've got money coming in. And this I think is another thing about it is is that it puts the pressure of providing an income on to your creativity.
Christina Bradley 36:54
It takes the pressure off it you mean?
Charlie Haynes 36:56
Yes, sorry, if you were if you were going full time writing for you, yes, you're putting a huge amount of pressure on your creativity, rather than nurturing it. Whereas if you've got a three day a week job, you're saying, I am support, I'm being an adult, I'm supporting myself financially through this work. And that means that I've got these two days. And a, the fact that you've got a limited time means that you are more likely to use it in a focused way. But also be you're giving yourself the time. So you're and you're supporting your creativity, rather than trying to make it support you, which is really a dangerous game, because it's it's a long road, and it's hard to make a living as a writer.
Christina Bradley 37:38
And it's the quickest way to kill it, I think to kill you creativity, putting that kind of pressure on it.
Charlie Haynes 37:43
Yeah.
Christina Bradley 37:44
Talk to me a little bit about accountability and external accountability, because you actually run a course, don't you? I don't know if you call it a course, but you've got your, I'm not gonna say this correctly. But is it the six month book project? Six month novel, yeah.
Charlie Haynes 37:57
It's about getting people to write to go from maybe they've got a paragraph of an idea that really broad brush this person, this happens to them. Going from that to a completed first draft. And sort of, you know, knowing how to edit it at the end of it in six months. And I do think that having Yeah, I do think that deadlines, external deadlines are a wonderful thing. And there is a subset of people. I don't know if you've seen Gretchen Reubens work on. Yeah, on what motivates you. So something internally motivated? I wish I was one of them. Because that would be so much easier. But most of us do need external motivation and having somebody say to you, okay, how are you going to split up your novel? How many words are you going to submit at the end of this month is a knowing that someone is waiting for it is a big motivator. And you can do that, you know, you can do that with your friends, I used to have a creative Group, a very informal one with some friends. And we would just meet up for dinner once a month, or once every three months, it turned out to be say, Oh, this is how things are going in my creative life. And this is what I want to get done by next by the time we meet next time.
Christina Bradley 39:14
I think that's so helpful. And I think just setting an intention, actually, and not just with yourself actually saying it out loud to other people, immediately makes you accountable. And, and it does, I think it triggers something within you where you feel like okay, well now I really need to do it because I've said it. And I don't think it needs to be anything to sort of, you know, regimented, but just having that sort of external accountability I think can be so useful. I know that when I was writing my first draft, I am something that had taken me so so long to kind of do initially and then a good friend of mine sort of stepped in and she kept setting me weekly deadlines and I don't even know whether she was reading it
Charlie Haynes 39:53
What a wonderful friend. Everyone needs a friend like her.
Christina Bradley 39:56
I know she was so so so great and living in Dubai at the time. times are not even the same place. And she would just, you know, take a chapter off me read, I don't know if she did read it, but she
Charlie Haynes 40:07
It doesn't matter does it.
Christina Bradley 40:08
And I said to her at the beginning, I don't need, I don't need, like, you know, my grammar checkede or my spelling checked or kind of editorial input. I just need help getting this done. And that's all she did. And she, you know, I think sometimes she liked it. Sometimes she didn't say anything. But she always said, keep going, and then send me the next one on this date. And just that sort of, yeah, external accountability, external motivation, having somebody else there, so you don't, I think writing can be such a solo journey and half the battle is that you, you know, sometimes it can be pretty mundane, and that, you know, monotonous you sit down with yourself in the same space, if it's not going that well you don't find your state of flow, it can be quite difficult to keep that momentum going. So I think having somebody else that's in your corner who sort of championing your vision is really important.
Charlie Haynes 40:58
And yeah, like you said, it doesn't matter if they like it or not. And it doesn't matter if you don't, if you say to them never read this, it's just the fact that they're going, I am expecting this from you. And a lot of us, we want to please people we don't we're trained to, a lot of us to please people, and we don't want to let them down. So just having that little bit will, will help us go, Oh, well, I have to submit something. And then by the time you get to that next week, and you've submitted it, the chances are that you'll be over that bad patch.
Christina Bradley 41:25
Yeah, exactly. And to your point at the, you know, the beginning of this conversation about how you know, to get going, you just need to sit down initially and do the work if you've...
Charlie Haynes 41:34
Which sucks, but you do.
Christina Bradley 41:36
And it's the only way, the only way you get to the other side of it is to walk straight through it. So I'm having somebody that can can help you with that, even if you only sort of enrol them for that that sort of first, you know, a few weeks or whatever it is to just get back into it. I think it's just so valuable.
Charlie Haynes 41:54
Yeah, or you know that. And there are lots of other ways of getting that. And I think this is why a lot of people do writing courses. I mean, I love doing writing courses on them so much fun. And just knowing that you've that you've got, you know, you've got an exercise that you have to hand in. Yeah, it makes you do it.
Christina Bradley 42:15
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've been on your urban retreats and just the idea in the morning, you know, you're obviously you're all doing your own thing, but in the morning, just sharing with the rest of the group, what it is that you're trying to get out of the day and what you're trying to achieve, just sort of focusing your mind not even not on a goal, but just an intention, I think and then sharing out loud with other people. I just think it's such a motivator.
Charlie Haynes 42:37
It is yeah, and it sounds silly and simple. But But those kinds of things are powerful. I think.
Christina Bradley 42:45
Charlie, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much. I've just got one last question to finish on. What does living a creative life mean to you?
Charlie Haynes 42:55
Oooh
Christina Bradley 42:56
Take your time. I know, I might change this question. Because I wanted to have a really poignant question to end on and I asked people, everyone's like, it's a really good interview, and I'm totally stuck.
Charlie Haynes 43:07
It's like, oh, but from, from what angles mean? And what does living a creative life mean to you?
Christina Bradley 43:14
Just to you.
Charlie Haynes 43:15
So I mean, I don't know how I don't have any other people have done this but I've actually done an exercise where I go through, where you know, you, you go through a list of 80-90-100 values, and you decide what your life's values are. And create and I've done this at various points over the last 10 years, and creativity has always come up as one of my top three. And that and what I mean is, are that is that the values that I want to live my life according to. So you know, and these, these are things that sort of permeate through everything that I do and so nurturing one creativity is another one. And it just means that living creatively it's changing over time. And the phase that I'm in at the moment which is really nice living creatively means that I am allowing myself to play a lot more. So yeah, I'm letting myself try new things. And I keep I'm always reminding myself I'm allowed to be creative and I should be making things so yeah, that's that's what it means at the moment it means actually going Yes, this is important in my life and giving it let letting myself do it. Really.
Christina Bradley 44:37
Oh, I love that. I love that and that was a brilliant answer to that question. Thank you so much.
Charlie Haynes 44:43
I passed
Christina Bradley 44:45
Maybe I'll keep it in after all. Charlie, where can people find you and what are you up to at the moment?
Charlie Haynes 44:52
So you can find me at Urban Writer's Retreat.co.uk at the moment or all of my retreats have gone online. And there are links in the website to that. But the thing that I'm sort of focused on at the moment is I've got a four week kind of online adventure called the writer's block detox, which is just for people who are not writing at the moment who wants to be it's kind of, I guess I'm like you're writing big sister, to give people a bit of a kick up the bum and lots of prompts and encouragement just to get them moving again. So yeah, that's that's kind of where my focus is at the moment.
Christina Bradley 45:28
Brilliant. People can find that just by visiting your website.
Charlie Haynes 45:30
Yeah, yeah. If you just go to the website, then there's a fairly clear link to it from that.
Christina Bradley 45:35
Brilliant. So thank you so much for being one of my guests. It's been a real joy.
Charlie Haynes 45:39
Thank you.
Christina Bradley 45:40
And hopefully we'll get to do it again.
Charlie Haynes 45:42
Yes, lovely. Okay.