Christina Bradley 0:04
Hi, Steve, great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.
Steve Garratt 0:09
My pleasure. Great to be here.
Christina Bradley 0:12
So we've got a lot to chat about today, we've just been doing a little bit of behind the scenes conversation around creativity to get the ball rolling. And today, I really want to talk to you about the sort of the duality of your creativity because you are founder and director of Studio Giggle. As well as being a writer, so you have different strands to creativity. And I'd love to talk to you about both sides of that creative coin. So perhaps we can start with Studio Giggle. And if you could just tell me a little bit more about the kind of work you do there.
Steve Garratt 0:47
So, studio giggle, we've been going for 13 years now I just have to remember how old My son is. And then then I can kind of figure it out. Six months after I started Studio guigal, my ex wife found out she was pregnant. So it was kind of like, How old's my son plus six months, and then that kind of tells me it's a
Christina Bradley 1:05
Good way of doing it.
Steve Garratt 1:07
Remembering everything as it is, he would likely tell you so yeah, so we can go like 13 years now, which is for any creative agency, that's quite a long time. And when we started, we were just the intention was just to be a straight up video agency. And we were doing a lot of filming for councils. And and you know, just kind of quite quite basic video production work. And it was very much set up with the idea that it would effectively pay for me to be an artist. So I'd sold a couple of kids ideas to Fox Kids. And I wanted to pursue that side of what I was doing more and more. But I needed time, I needed space. And I needed resources to do that. Because I've never been one. I've never been particularly brave, when it comes to putting myself out there. And I wanted to be able to put myself out there a quiet high level. So I wanted to be surrounded by people who could make stuff. And you know, I'm quite lucky, I've got quite a lot of skills myself in terms of video production, but I had no animation skills. And the work that I was selling was very much animation based. So that was kind of the idea of it. But then we had the economic crash in 2008. And when that happened, I was literally about to go on this massive networking thing that just happen on a boat, where you'd like trapped with your clients for three days. And you basically pitch to them. It's it sounds really an idea.
Christina Bradley 2:41
I love that I know. And I was thinking that I was like, I don't know whether that sounds amazing or hideous. A little bit of both.
Steve Garratt 2:47
It was both of those things, because we both know that when you're with clients, you have a professional, a way of being a professional way. But it's impossible to maintain that for for three days. You know, you're you meet my breakfast, lunch and dinner. You're socialising with them afterwards, you see them in various states of inebriation. You get to know these people really, really well. And a lot of the people that I met on, did it like four or five times in the end, but a lot of the people I met on that are still clients with me today, because we know each other and we've got to know each other really well. But when I went on that boat for the first time, I was sat down, and I looked to my left and right and there was maybe 10 other video production companies all pitching video, these guys and I was like, well, this isn't gonna work. I mean, why are they going to pick one video production company over another? I mean, you know, unless I'm really lucky. And we really hit it off personally. So I kind of ditched my deck and just told everyone we were an animation house. And we've done a couple of animations. I had a freelance animator been working for me. So I just kept showing those to people and telling people how we we specialised in animation, literally just kind of kind of made it up
Christina Bradley 4:00
That's very brave to do that.
Steve Garratt 4:02
It's pretty much sums up how I approach most things. Really, it's just like, nothing. I'll do it like this now from now on. So going back to giggle I was like, we're not gonna do video anymore. We're gonna do animation now. And everyone's like, oh, okay, that's quite interesting. So we then spent sort of four or five years really focusing on animation. And interestingly, that actually led us to doing some film work as well, and a lot of mixed media stuff. So we ended up doing quite a lot of animation with film, which are some of those I quite enjoyed doing. It gave us a lot of opportunity. And also, the kind of creative process was more interesting, because we weren't just going out and filming people and then editing it and then just passing it on. There was a there was a second layer of of content and creativity. And that kind of took us through to about one year so 2012 sometime around then and then I met Jonathan Jonathan Brigdon, who's my business partner now, and he was running a company called knife edge in In London, and they specialised in doing a lot of kind of very big screen big, really quite quite kind of quite cool stuff, projection mapping and that kind of stuff. And he but he was struggling to find the talent that had plenty of talents, because basically Bristol, we've got animators coming out our ears. But he was struggling to find animators or make it competitive in London, because the rates were too high. So we, we look to bring in the two businesses together, and seeing if we can create some sort of hybrid, which is what we did about sort of 18 months later. And that kind of set us on this really interesting path where we, we kind of have this creativity, technology, narrative kind of triangle that we work to where something requires, you know, some sort of technological revolution or a piece of technology that somebody's not used before. And you add that to the kind of creativity, the animation, and but it's got a story element to it as well. That's kind of like our sweet spot. And then a lot of our work sort of sits very much in in that, particularly the kind of work we're doing right now.
Christina Bradley 6:11
I love that. And I obviously, I mean, we've worked together for quite a while, and I've known you for a little while. And I actually I don't think I've heard that full kind of story of how Google came to be. I knew about the boat piece, but I didn't know, I didn't know the rest of it. And I love how it's kind of evolved over time.
Steve Garratt 6:26
Yeah, I think every five years, I was held this by my old boss, a guy called Chris Bradfield, who ran events company for like, 20 odd years. And one of the best pieces of advice he gave me was, every five years your business will evolve. So just be ready for it, you know. And I was like, what, like literally everybody. And weirdly, it is literally every five years. But you can almost you could almost put it in your in your calendar. It's like the energy's strange, isn't it, it's like the energy that you have, for a particular way of working, you get that kind of initial kind of, oh, let's go in this direction. So everyone goes in that direction, and then you get really good at it. So you get to that kind of two, three years, and you're really, really good at it. Got lots of clients coming in, it's all bubbling away, but then it starts to tail off. And the reason it starts to tail off is because everyone's done it. You've done it with all the people that have seen it and and when other people come in, they go, yeah, yeah, we like it, but we got a bit different. And then use that starts to tail off. And then you've got to come up with this, what this new thing is, and then you kind of leap forward. And the hope is that you go up in steps, and you're not kind of going up and then down and then up and down, right time you are progressing and moving forward, and you're retaining clients, and they're going on that journey with you. And that that's really the key if you can, if you can evolve, but retain, then you're growing. But if you evolve and you don't retain and then you have to rebuild your client base each time, then you won't grow you'll stay static or, or even worse, you'll you'll get smaller or disappear. So it's it's it's trying to is trying to make sure that your clients are integral to that change and development. So you're you're listening to what they need. And you're offering them solutions that that not only meet what they need, but surpass their expectations. Be patient, yeah, you can take them to the next level. And we both know, you know that most most jobs start with Well, it was great last year. So how are we going to top that?
Christina Bradley 8:25
How do we improve upon that? Exactly? Which I guess in in itself creates a natural form of evolution, doesn't it? Because you are trying to do sort of outdo yourself each each time you you know, create,
Steve Garratt 8:38
and but also just try to make sure that you're not doing it for doing it sake. You know, it's it's very, it's very easy to just keep throwing the new toy at somebody. But if it's got no, if it doesn't connect to the narrative, if it doesn't, if it doesn't, like enhance the engagement of the people they're trying to reach out to it doesn't. It's just you know, it's just a nice wrapper around the same box.
Christina Bradley 9:03
So in terms of your creative process, when it comes to working with clients, is that kind of where you where you start, is it? What are we trying to achieve? And who are we trying to achieve it for? Is that kind of the process that you embark on?
Steve Garratt 9:16
Yeah, I think probably where I start is Who are they? And by that I don't even mean the business, I mean, the person, the person that's going to engage you, though, I mean, no matter what, how, however you do this, it is one person engaging a nother person. And that's, you know, like and the fact that that person might work for a massive global company, and you work for an agency, fundamentally, the relationship, the primary relationship will be between me and then and understanding them or what their drivers are, what are they looking for? Where are they in their career? That's really, really important. So
Christina Bradley 9:56
just so I'm clear then so it's the relationship you're talking about. Now it's between you and the client, not between you and the intended audience.
Steve Garratt 10:05
Yes, absolutely. So really understanding what is motivating that client? What Why did they suddenly feel that they need to do something on a 30 metre wide screen in the middle of the ocean? You know, what, what, why do they feel they need to do that? Why have they come to me? You know, what, what is it in me that they that they think will add to what they need to do? Most people that we work with are towards the top end of their career. So they tend to be, you know, Director of Marketing Director of Communications. And so, where, what are they looking for out of their job right now? I mean, one thing they definitely don't want is to take on something that is going to, you know, end their career, you know, right.
Christina Bradley 10:51
And that's very real situation. Absolutely.
Steve Garratt 10:54
Absolutely, really, that that kind of stuff really can happen. And particularly in this new world, you know, when when there are many things that are outside of the event companies control, you know, the risk, the risk reward factor is extremely high. But the first risk reward factor is really understanding what that individuals appetite is for risk against reward. And what what is motivating them? Are they somebody that that doesn't want to repeat what they've done and found is as worse every year, are they somebody who likes to repeat what they've done? Because it works, and they're good at it, and they feel comfortable? And then you're not, then you won't find yourself pitching ideas that they just say no to all the time, because that's really
Christina Bradley 11:38
That's what I was going to ask you, actually. So why is understanding all of that sort of psychological side of the client? Why is that so important? And it's because basically, when you go back and you deliver on that brief and you pitch an idea is making sure that it speaks to them, I suppose.
Steve Garratt 11:55
Yeah, absolutely. And so it's something that someone that they, they would feel represents them. So when they go and pitch it to, to the people that are going to sign the chequek, that they're, they're invested in it, it feels like something that they would do. And they're not they're not, they're not looking at their boss going, Yeah, I know, it sounds bonkers. But he says he can do it. And you know, you've you've established that sort of level of trust, you've got you've gone past that first hurdle. And, you know, there's, there's that thing about five points of sale, that you have to go through that kind of process that you have to go through. But all the first three points on that kind of five points to scouting, are all about personal contact, they're all about they're all about understanding each other on an individual level, there will of course, come a moment when me gig and giggle then need to understand them and their wider business, that becomes extremely important. Once you're once you've got past that initial process. Because obviously, whatever we wherever we we, we pitch to them needs to reflect the business and needs to meet the audience's needs, it needs to engage them it needs to deliver whatever content it is. But, you know, most of the time where we're delivering, we're finding really interesting ways of delivering a PowerPoint presentation. You know, that's, you know, whether whether there be PowerPoint in it or not, most of the clients imagine that they are getting a PowerPoint presentation. And we find an interesting creative way of making sure they don't have to. Yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of it and the content of that presentation, whatever it might be, whether it ends up being a film, a script, a dance piece, a piece of interactive, theatrical engagement, whatever it ends up being could be a party. But the content, the important points, data points within that PowerPoint still need to be conveyed. And if all of our froth or gloss and glitz and glamour get in the way of that, and we haven't done our job, and that's, that's, you know, you have to just keep reminding yourself and if we haven't done our job, then that guy's trust in me was not
Christina Bradley 14:08
Was is misplaced.
Steve Garratt 14:10
Yes. Was misplaced. Exactly. Yeah. And, and that's gonna have consequences.
Christina Bradley 14:17
That's really fascinating. So that brings me on to my next question, actually, and I'm really having worked with you and knowing that this is so often a challenge. How do you manage the getting the balance between keeping the creative integrity of a project or a vision, something that you know, you guys have all worked through and are super excited about and really believing because obviously, you wouldn't be pitching work that you didn't believe in? And then sort of having to incorporate the client's vision which is probably a little safer, a little dumbed down. But yet holding on to that integrity of the creativity. How do you find that balance?
Steve Garratt 15:00
I'd like to think we do most of the time. And, and I've got kids, and it's very similar to the kind of relationship you have with a child is like seven to 10. And, and that is picking the battles, picking the battles that matter. And that comes from experience. So understanding, which are the lines that which are my lead, right, red lines, what are their red lines? You know, what are the things that I don't want to compromise? Because I believe, yeah, because I believe that without them, the the, it will be difficult to hold the integrity of the event together. So it's really important that we get this continuity of look through something or it's really important that we shoot all of these things in this particular way, because it enhances your narrative in this particular way. And the tone, the kind of effect of all of them will enhance the engagement. So it's kind of weighing up all of those things. And then if, if they come to us and say, well, that particular presenter only wants to do this, and they don't want that, and you're okay, so we can compromise on this bit, and this bit, and this bit, but maybe I can talk to him about why these things are important. And often often will win those arguments genuinely by just showing them what we're going to do. So if you've got, you know, if you're working with like 10 presenters, and one of them is just being quite difficult, you just show them how great the other presenters look. And if there's one thing they don't want to do, is look worse than their than their other colleagues. So again, right, broken that down into an individual relationship, and kind of understanding what the motivations of that individual presenter are, and why they might be causing why they might be dragging their heels or not wanting to get on board with a particular creative treatment. And it's always down to fear or, you know, insecurities about themselves, their current position, all of that kind of stuff. And there's a lot of a lot of kind of the an individual psychology within a business is incredibly important when it comes to them standing on stage or them standing in front of the camera, and purporting to be the lead on a particular item. You know, they want to feel as confident and as comfortable, and as in control as they possibly can. And sometimes that control spills out into trying to control the event in some way or trying to restrict the event in some way. And it's and it's just, it all comes down to personal relationships. Fundamentally, I can't convince anybody to dress up as Santa Claus and and juggle for me whilst giving their annual report, you know, that it's, that's just not going to happen. But you can, you can explain to people how the totality of all 10 presenters dressed up as various Christmas characters, juggling important objects that are relevant to their particular presentation, would enhance engagement and transform the way that their audience feel about this company. And, and it is possible to get people to do some quite remarkable things, people who you'd think they'll never do that in a million years.
Christina Bradley 18:18
But it is about taking the risk, isn't it? I mean, with all of these, with all of these things, it's stepping out of your comfort zone and exposing yourself to a degree but also, sort of, you know, it's an unknown outcome, potentially. So it is increasing the possible risk,
Steve Garratt 18:35
I like to think we take people to the very edge of that comfort zone. And that's, and that's the right place to be. I don't think one out
Christina Bradley 18:42
of it, why not totally out of it?
Steve Garratt 18:44
I don't think you should ever be out of your comfort zone in in a corporate environment. Because the risk reward factors of that are very, very skewed. Because why have we taken you out of your comfort zone, so far? Why have we pushed you that far? What What, what is that incremental gain that we feel we're gonna get by doing that, and it's very, very unlikely they're gonna perform at their best in that space, there, you know, when they're, when they are looking, I want to be over there. And so we're not going to be showing them to the very best of their ability. So what we want to do is take them right to the edge of their comfort zone. So they're still there. And there's still things that they recognise, there's still things that they can hold on to, and if we get them to perform at their very best on the edge of their comfort zone, next time we come to them, their comfort zone has grwon
Christina Bradley 19:33
It's shifted and you can take them that little bit further.
Steve Garratt 19:36
The space in which they feel they can operate as it has expanded. And you see this you see this of individuals, but you see it mostly with like a client as as a as a kind of a whole. So suddenly the company who comes to you with a very small budget, and they just want to do talking heads and they just you know, very low risk and we're quite corporate, we're very serious, but you deliver them those called those Talking Heads, and they think Got a little bit of something extra in them. And they come back and go, Wow, they were really well received those were, you know, that was I was quite surprised by the way people went for it. Suddenly they're surprised, because their assumptions about the people around them. And they've looked at all their past work and gone Well, yeah, but we're not that company. So we're not going to do that. There's suddenly like, Oh, actually, good, high quality creativity that enhances and engages, always, always wins, it will always do what you want it to do. And, and in many ways, it's quite nice working with companies that are quite conservative, because you don't actually have to go too far to make a really big impact. Yeah. Yeah. When you get those companies that come to you and go, let's do whatever you like, you know, like your Googles and Facebooks, and that kind of stuff. And they're like, you're pitching some they go? Yeah, yeah, we did that three years ago. Yeah.
Christina Bradley 20:55
Yeah, they're a tougher audience.
Steve Garratt 20:56
Whoa, okay. So then then you're like, Okay, we're gonna project your logo on the moon. Okay. Love it. That's, that's like my big corporate dream, I want to do that one day project, somebody's logo on the moon, it would be just too much fun.
Christina Bradley 21:17
I've got a question for you just about what you said. So that's really interesting, and makes so much sense about how far you push clients towards the very edges of their comfort zone. I'm interested to know you as a creative, how far are you prepared to go out of your comfort zone? Is it something that you do? And if so, how does that feel and what sort of what sort of motivates you to venture out of your comfort zone?
Steve Garratt 21:43
So I think I think my comfort zone is, is pretty big. And I'm, I'm a risk taker, I always was, have been, and the nice thing is, john, john isn't such a big risk taker. So you know, I'll present things that are, frankly, ridiculous. And then john will go, okay, we could do something that's similar to that. But but this is achievable. And, and we can feel comfortable with this. And there's this kind of balance between the two of us, which is why I think we work so well together. And, you know, he, he will often find ways to do the things that I want to do. And it won't feel like a compromise, it will feel what it will feel like it's actually added added to the idea and got rid of some of the kind of superfluous kind of glossy elements around the edge, which you don't really need. But I just thought it would look really cool. So that and you also then bring the client in. And they also do that everyone kind of chips away at the edges of it. And I think if you sometimes I like to present people with things that I know, almost definitely, they're going to say no to as in its purest form, but there will be elements in that which they'll kind of latch on to. And that will give me like a really nice clue. And that's, and that's, I guess that's that thing, you know, shoot for the stars, but ain't but land on the moon. And that's really cool. If you if you don't give them that kind of, we could go here, we can have circus la let's do that. They go, let's not have cirque solei. Like is that really scares me. But we could involve some elements of that. And we could do and you go, Okay, so. So that's where we've landed, and we've landed really safely and everyone feels comfortable. But we have definitely pushed the envelope. But for me, where where do I feel outside of my comfort zone? I feel outside of my comfort zone. I think when when I'm exposed, doing something that I maybe don't have as much experience in as I would like. So I'm quite a lucky individual. I trained as a theatre director, I've worked in theatre, I've done stage management, I've called stage I've called pontos. So I've been a DSM, I've been a touring company, stage manager, I've been a cameraman, I've been an editor. I've been a motion capture director, I've been a writer, you know, I've kind of done all of the jobs that that we that we that make up a lot of the work that we do. And it's very few things. I can't sit down and go, Oh, actually, I know, I know how to do this, but I'm just not, I'm not great at any of those things. So I know enough so that I know that when I'm pitching it, it's it's achievable. But then I hand it over to somebody brilliant, and they go off and do it. And I think when I'm outside of my comfort zone, it's when I've pitched something and No, there isn't anybody else in the room that knows how to do it. And I'm kind of relying on my fairly, fairly basic, rudimentary knowledge to try and figure out how on earth to do this and I. The thing is, though, I quite like it. I quite like that. I quite like the feeling so so I don't ever really think about it as being outside of my comfort zone. I just feel that I'm pushing myself on this one. And if I'm not pushing them myself. That's, that's, that's what I'm I get bored. I just get bored. And I'm not I don't I can't engage with something. Yeah, there isn't an element of growth for learning in a particular project, if it's just bashing out the same thing that we did a year ago or it's okay, we have another one of those. I'm like, Yeah, okay. Yeah, we can. Okay.
Christina Bradley 25:24
Bread and butter. Yeah, exactly.
Steve Garratt 25:26
That's not, that's not a particularly great commercial attitude. Because obviously, getting really good at something and then repeating it, and selling it and making more profit from it is fundamentally what a business should be doing, you should just get really good at one thing. But that's just not, it's, that's just not me. It's just not who
Christina Bradley 25:50
I think also is, it's really for me, as well, I find that, you know, I need variation. And I need, you know, that variety really motivates me. So if I don't have that, and I've been doing something for too long, and I've become an expert at it, I'm like, well, I've kind of gone as far as I can go now with this. And I want something different, whether that's adapting what I'm already doing, or kind of going, you know what, that was a fabulous chapter. And now it's time for something else. And sort of starting a whole new adventure. I mean, I've done that so many times, my entire career is just a zigzag.
Steve Garratt 26:23
So it's called a chameleon career, isn't it? Where you adapt and change and evolve, and just, you know, you shed off the skin and, and then you change your colour and you become something different, but you're still, you're still a chameleon, you're still you're still in it.
Christina Bradley 26:41
Also, you are still legitimate, because you are bringing all of that accumulated experience and knowledge, you might be packaging up it up slightly differently. But you're still bringing all of that to the table with you, you know, all the all the years have gone before. Like that's not for nothing. And
Steve Garratt 26:58
I mean, it's all a lot of a lot of that stuff is there just tools. And, you know, the big thing that you carry with you year on year is that understanding of people, and it's the thing that I really love about the job is is going out and meeting new people, I get to go to amazing places, I meet incredible people who you know, like the the president of of six nations, and rugby or I'll go and interview the the chairman of HSBC at the top of HSBC tower in London, who gets to do that, who actually gets to sit down with these people. And whilst I have a bunch of questions, I'm going to ask them for whatever film we're making, I get to spend time with them as well, I get to understand, you know, what it's like to be that person for a very brief amount of time. And often these are really interesting, driven, intensely intelligent people who've got really interesting life stories. And that's, that's kind of what it's all about, I think is this is kind of accumulation of knowledge over a long period of time. But it's just about human nature, really what drives us what what drives us, what makes us want to be successful, what motivates us to do well in a job, and it might not have anything to do that job, it might be you're motivated by your family, or motivated by that holiday that you get once a year. And that really is your big main motivation. And all of everybody has a different reason for doing the thing that they're doing. And sometimes it's just because I need the money, and that's okay, it's absolutely fine. And by meet people, like, on all the full length of the spectrum, and you know, I get to do that every single year. And that's, that's incredible.
Christina Bradley 28:42
It's so cool. And I think also, just as part of that, what it made me think of actually, when you're talking is people just sort of sharing their stories, I think you'll witness in your job, I think you'll witness to so many stories, and I think that that probably feeds into everything you do, right? It's that aspect of storytelling, and you are a storyteller. And it's being able to spend time with these people to really extrapolate their stories.
Steve Garratt 29:05
Yeah, well, you know, it's been a write yourself that, you know, this is, this is awful thing where you write something, you suddenly realise that oh, my God, that's, that's, oh, I've just put somebody I know, this works. I bet I've just tweaked it slightly, because they might they do.
Christina Bradley 29:22
They do say that, with all writing that, you know, the authors actually put a lot of themselves. Yes. I and I think there's truth in that.
Steve Garratt 29:29
Yeah, I think there's there's a lot of truth in that you kind of split your personality up into lots of different facets and the joy of being a writer is you get you somebody who's given you the opportunity to go off and explore what it would be like to be 100% one part of your your personality. And just to see what what their comfort zone is what happens when they when that part of your personality gets put into this situation. That's not that they wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable in and that's You know, that's, that's the joy of it the saying it's very similar to acting, I think in that respect, you get a bit inhabit these roles and, and just just play. And it's an it's a mental gymnastics, you're just playing in your head all the time. And, and that's, and I think that's it that's very much like my my work life. The day job is I get to go and play at being an investment banker, I get to go and play at being you know, in Manchester United, speaking to oligomer, social or whatever, you know, this, these these things, you get to go and play. And yeah, what a joy. Well, absolute joy,
Christina Bradley 29:49
What a joy. And I think also, I talked about this a lot in the show. But, you know, play is such an integral part of creativity anyway. And that ability actually to play. I think he's just so fundamental in being able to actually live a creative life. I would love to know a little bit more about your writing. So we've talked a lot about the day job, and the and giggle the other side of that creative coin, which is obviously your writing. And I'd love to know more about your personal relationship with your creativity. What does so we talked about what the process looks like with a client brief. What is your process look like your creative process for writing projects? Because for this, I guess the differentiation between the two is that one is somebody else's brief that you have to, to kind of meet. Whereas when it's your own personal project, Sky's the limits. You know, there is there is no limits, there is only your imagination. So I'm just really curious to know how you go about sitting down and beginning your writing.
Steve Garratt 31:50
Yeah, I'm always curious about meeting other writers or watching you know, like a masterclass with Neil Gaiman or something like that. And listening to their process. I was watching Alan Sorkin or Adam Sorkin, Alan Sorkin wrote the social network. Yeah. So I was watching his master class the other day, because I was in a bit of a sort of a creative sort of funk and I couldn't, I was sitting There staring at a page, a blank page just going do I just start, do I just write today, what should I do today, how I don't really know what to do. So my process is very, changes very much depending on what type of project I'm working on. So I'm doing an MA in script writing at the moment. So we've been doing a lot of TV stuff. So TV requires that you make quite in depth treatments. So you create you, you literally create, you do the creative process for yourself. So you create an outline, which is effectively your brief. So this is roughly what we're trying to achieve. And then you create a treatment from your brief. So that's an in depth look at that episode, whichever particular episode you're writing, and then from that treatment, you're going to create a script. So you're effectively you've got the blueprint, and then you put the scaffold up, and then you fill the house out. And that's and that's
Christina Bradley 33:16
I love that analogy. That's great. Yeah,
Steve Garratt 33:18
And it's really structured. And each of those processes will, will change as you move into the next process. So you'll write the treatment, and then you'll find, you'll probably have to go back and tweak the outline, because you now no longer matches the treatment. And then you'll write the scripts, and you'll realise that at some point in your script, you just went off on one. And you really like where you went, because your characters came alive, and they started doing stuff that you weren't expecting, and then you go back and rewrite the treatment, and then try and make sure that that's lined up again. So you're constantly moving backwards and forwards between these documents. And then hopefully, at the end, you can hand them all over to your agent or to the production company, whoever it is that you're doing this for. I don't think you ever go into any of these processes with nothing. Like Like, like, you know, it's not the limit is not my imagination. The limit is is the marketplace. That's that's a consideration. Who Who Who do I know? who's buying who Where are the where's the opportunities? What kind of thing? What kind of thing is working at the moment? What do I think it's gonna be working in five years time? What's that been like?
Christina Bradley 34:31
Are you actually thinking about that?
Steve Garratt 34:33
Yeah, I know that isn't that awful? It's, but I put that there. I would be lying if I said I wasn't thinking about that. I actually think quite a lot of writers do think like this. They just don't say it. Because Because you'll see that there's an if you write a novel and you you go down to Waterstones and you suddenly see there's 15 books on the First World War, you're not going to go home and think I'm going to write a book on the First World War. Just like I think I could do it,you would be bonkers to do it.
Christina Bradley 35:05
But I think there is an exception to that if the idea has already landed. Because for me if if I am working on my next book now, and if I saw something that was similar. First, I would I wouldn't read it, because it would just I would worry too much that it would interfere with my own ideas. But I would absolutely continue writing because I feel once an idea has landed and sort of latched on, I need to see how far I can take it. And I need to see what it's going to look like. And I feel quite responsible to see it through to the end
Steve Garratt 35:13
So it's really that's really interesting, because I probably have in process 20 or 30 ideas at any one time.
Christina Bradley 35:45
Do you Yeah, see, I've got one right now.
Steve Garratt 35:48
So I will have I'll have ideas for for TV for kids, I'll have ideas for radio, theatre, I'll have creative ideas, things that I want to paint, got photography thing that I really can't quite do the moment it's just trying to find, you know, just waiting for the opportunity to actually spend some time on it is, you know, there's so many so many different ways in which my kind of creativity comes out. But that if I see if I if I see if I start working on something, I see that there's lots of that about suddenly, because we're all picking up on the same wavelength, all these ideas, are all floating around in the ether and we're just we're just conduits to this. And when when something becomes kind of zygosity, you know, it's your mad, if you think you're the only person on the planet that's picked up on that that particular wavelength, there's at least 50 other people out there. And if, if, if I don't feel that, what I've got to say is, is it matured enough or it's, it's interesting enough, I will very quickly switch to another idea and go and explore that in a little bit, and then go, Okay, I'll just put that one over there. And so the thing that I'm writing at the moment is actually really unique, because, I mean, it's unique in terms of my process because I didn't have any ideas for theatre. I've started my theatre module on the on this MA. And I was planning to write a radio piece. I've got like five different radio and you said you're going to do a radio radio piece. I've got like five different radio pieces. And then as we were in the class and the and the tutors, amazing lady who runs a theatre company in Bristol Caracas. She does lots of kind of multimedia stuff was VR stuff was VR stuff, lots of projection stuff. And I was like, This is crazy. Why have I not considered all of these elements that I've been spending the last 15-20 years of my life doing? And I'm a trained theatre director, I love theatre, I lived for theatre. I wanted to be the next Stephen Sondheim, you know, it was like it was totally focused on becoming a theatre director before I started being a video editor. I was like, Why? Why am I not like grasping this opportunity to sit down and write something where somebody who really knows about this kind of stuff is going to work with me on this. And that's a rare opportunity in itself to actually get incredible feedback from, from somebody who's working massively respect. And you should always seize those opportunities, because it's really good quality feedback is really hard. You know, it'd be crazy not to. So I was like, Okay, I just put all those radio ideas over there, come back from another time, put them put them, I just, I use Apple notes. So it's on my phone, it's on my iPad, it's on my computer. And I've just got this little folder that says creative ideas. It's got like 300 different kind of headings with little notes in and then I might drop a picture.
Christina Bradley 38:51
Oh, interesting. That would torment me, Steve. This part I'm listening to. I'm like, I love that. And I definitely have, you know, with my business and future stories, I do have a few. I do have a few ideas jotted down, but not in any kind of depth. If I had projects that I've sort of started and parked, and then moved on to another idea, and they were sat there to kind of return to I just even hear you. I'm just like, No, I can't handle it. There's too many moving parts running around. And I i would i would be intimidated by that. I think.
Steve Garratt 39:24
Yeah, I think maybe maybe the word I do have giggle gets me used to this idea of multiple projects moving forward.
Christina Bradley 39:31
Yeah, I guess.
Steve Garratt 39:32
You know, like in giggle at the moment. I've got seven, seven projects I'm currently creatively directing.
Christina Bradley 39:39
How do you do that? How do you kind of compartmentalise your head, your mind, so that you're able to focus on any one at a particular time, but actually be able to give that you're sort of just your devoted attention, I suppose. Because for me, I feel like I have to get one project done and dusted before I can move on to the next and then I can put All of my attention, all of my focus all of my love into that one project, and then move on again. Yeah. super curious how you how you juggle those.
Steve Garratt 40:09
Yeah, so I probably be better at what I do if I didn't juggle all of those things, but I think my brain, my brain requires it. I'm easily distracted. And I'm, I'm not what you'd call a completer finisher. So my purse, my personality type is on that 16 personalities thing, which I love. I think it's amazing. Is the debater personality, so entp a ntpa. So that, and it basically means that that I like, I like to look at things from lots of different angles. And I'm quite happy to jump into an idea that I am totally, like, I will just I will create an argument for something I totally don't believe in, you know, just to explore it. And and that's, it's a brilliant, it's, it's great fun. It's really annoying to be around, because it means I will argue anything. And I enjoy arguing the toss.
Christina Bradley 41:07
I hate you.
Steve Garratt 41:07
And I might not I might not even believe what I'm saying. But I will be exploring it with such intensity that people are like, yeah, you actually believe this? And I'm like, Well, no, not really. But it's really getting really interested in doing this. And they're like hating every minute of it. So yeah, makes me possibly not the easiest person to be around. But I think I think that kind of looking at things from multiple angles, means that whilst there Yes, there are a huge number of ideas there. A lot of those ideas are quite similar. They just sit in different locations with different characters, and they're looking, but they're looking at similar idea from a different angle. I got an agent at the beginning of this year. And we were talking about what my writing was really about, it became quite obvious that it almost everything that I wrote had something to do with identity. And it had, it was very clear that a lot of my characters were were purporting to be something on the outside. But they had something very different on the inside, which had been suppressed. And I thought, well, this is really interesting, because my own kind of personal journey, over the last sort of 10 years has been this realisation that, somewhere along the line, I lost sight of being an artist, or I became afraid of being an artist, I was too afraid of failing, they wouldn't fully commit to it. So I kind of made this kind of conscious decision that I would no longer allow myself to hide away in that in that, that in that way anymore. I want it I want it to come, I want it to come forward, I wanted to express myself and to be seen as an artist and a creative. So and I had to make it do it in such a way that there could be no doubt in anyone's mind that that is exactly what I am. Because I want to be held up. And and and either, you know, either win or fail at doing that. Because that's the thing that I love to do. And clearly, and I don't I don't see myself as a writer. I don't see myself as a director, I don't see myself as I see myself as a creative. And that can express itself in in a million different ways. in so many different ways. You know, I draw I paint? I do I do wood. I just took up wood burning, like because I had so much fun pyrography who knew. But I took it up because I've got this script idea that I'm working on, which is about tattooing. It's not about tattooing. It has a lot of tattooing in it. And I realised I knew nothing about tattooing. So I went off and got a tattoo. So so I knew more about tattooing. But also the tattoo meant that that changed my identity. You know, I'm no longer I'm no longer like this respectable corporate guy. It doesn't matter what Ido. Now, I actually got her to put the tattoo in such a way that even with like a suit and shirt on, you can still see this tattoo. I can't hide it. It's impossible.
Christina Bradley 44:26
And therefore you can't hide. Like the real you can't hide
Steve Garratt 44:30
Exactly, like people are going to see that and let them make their judgments and their assumptions based on on that. Because Because I because I am a chameleon, because of all the stuff that we've done, you know that I've done in terms of like giggle and adapting and changing, you know, to work with so many different clients. If I suddenly realised it became incredibly easy for me to just to adapt to be the right person in the right place at the right time. But the Fundamental consequences about is is I was really unhappy,
Christina Bradley 45:04
It makes you miserable. Yeah, of course, you feel like you're betraying yourself and feel very inauthentic. Not necessarily to the world, but but to yourself. Because you know, you know,
Steve Garratt 45:15
who you are, you kind of forget, if you put on and you're wearing all of those different those different hats all the time you forget. So, you know, this, the huge number of ideas, I think, is a consequence of this, this kind of constant exploration, and a lot of them will never be more than a few notes and a few pictures and, and one of those characters might bleed into something else I'll take, I'll take that motif, I'll take that idea. You know, some, some of them wouldn't sustain an entire play or a TV series, or whatever it is, or film, whatever it is that I want to turn them into. But they might they might, the idea of that character or or their particular attitude to life, or, or that particular scenario, might make a really great episode in something else it might add to that. And that's the way I kind of hold all of these things together.
Christina Bradley 46:12
And actually, that, for me, sounds like that is part of the creative process, isn't it? Because all of these different ideas floating around, you know, they all sort of serve each other and are somehow interlinked in some way.
Steve Garratt 46:24
Yeah, I think the role of a creative is to take two or three things that everybody recognises and put them into, put them together in a way that people haven't seen before. So there's nothing written about any of those three things, because there's nothing original in the world. But if you put them together, you put three things that wouldn't normally be together together, and then present that that can be extraordinarily original. But like, that can feel really risky. And it can, and it can feel like you've really pushed the boundaries. But in actual fact, if you strip away the core components you're super comfortable with. So you know, when going back to giggle, will not will never use a piece of technology that's untested, you know, that's always been like our kind of golden rule. Until we broke that this year, you know? Yeah. But, but generally, generally, we would always work with technology that is well tested, particularly in the corporate environment. But then we will add something will add something unique to that. So it's then presented in a different way. And that then the totality becomes quite unique and, and very individual. And I think my writing my, the way that I sort of develop my writing is probably like that. I'm always looking for extraordinary people in ordinary places. That's that's, that's the kind of thing that I can't quite gravitate towards. You know, I, I've always I've always quite enjoyed checkov. But I've always enjoyed check off because of its ordinariness, you know, it's like like this very, very stripped back ordinary, very naturalistic kind of thing. But then I also love Lorca, because of its extraordinariness and his musicality, and its theatrical ness and it's a kind of fantasy fairy tale kind of thing. And for me, taking taking check of a locker and put into me putting them together. That's that's happiness for me. That's like that's like that's just joy. And I and to a lesser or greater extent, I think that's the kind of kind of thing that I like to do look at me liking to myself to checkov.
Christina Bradley 48:45
I'm gonna go with it, Steve. I'm gonna go with I think why not?
Steve Garratt 48:55
Like, oh my god, I have such an inflated
Christina Bradley 49:00
No at all.
Steve Garratt 49:03
But I think again, that's all part of the, for me, the journey of becoming a creative is is revelling in the pleasures of being a creative and and who doesn't, who didn't revel in the pleasures of, of creativity more than Byron, I mean, they, you know, that's literally his entire life was dedicated to the to the pleasure of creativity and the pleasure of pushing boundaries and the pleasure of taking people outside their comfort zone and being quite an extraordinary individual. Morally. Yes, very questionable. I still think one can live a slightly more kind of grounded,
Christina Bradley 49:52
up standing. Yeah.
Steve Garratt 49:54
You know when his kids and he likes to be a good role model for But, but the joy of being a creative and the joy of living the creative life, I think, you know, if I'm, if I'm eighty odd, and I look back to my go, I had more joy than I had sadness, and I had more wins than failures. I think that's, that's a successful creative life.
Christina Bradley 50:23
Yeah, that's a successful life. And do you think that sort of creative life that you're talking about, do you think that is available for everybody, albeit in very different ways, and using different sort of styles of creativity? I mean, writing might not be for everybody, obviously. But do you think living a creative life is something that everybody can achieve? And should try and achieve?
Steve Garratt 50:47
That's a really interesting question. The right answer to that is yes. That's, you know, like, that's, that's the answer that we should be saying. But it's not for everyone. Like, like, I've frequently meet people who say, I've got, particularly in the corporate world, they got to tell you, they have no imagination whatsoever. Unless extremely easy to disprove, because obviously, they do have imagination. We don't have an imagination, you couldn't even walk into a shop and pick clothes, because you couldn't imagine wearing them. So how are you?
Christina Bradley 51:21
Very good point. Yes, like,
Steve Garratt 51:22
So everyone makes creative decisions all the time in their life, and they judge the quality of their creative decisions, generally against the very, very best people out there. So like, you'll look at your house, and you'll go, Oh, my house isn't very interesting, because you've just watched a programme, where one of the world's greatest designers did up somebody's three bedroom, new new town home and made it a lot like a place. But, you know, that's, that's, that's ridiculous. That's, that's like every writer in the world judging themselves again, Shakespeare. You know, it's ridiculous. It's what purpose does it serve. So, pursuing creativity, I guess people need to really understand what it could do for them to enhance their creativity, or to take what creativity they have, and learn to utilise those tools in a more active, natural way. It's just a muscle. And the more you use it, the more the more natural it will become. The most people. No creativity, just haven't flex that muscle
Christina Bradley 52:31
I completely agree with that. But why? What Why would you? Or would you promote creativity? I mean, do you think it's something that actually, people should, you know, try and embrace within themselves?
Steve Garratt 52:49
No the last thing I want is thousands more writers out there because it's hard enough. Please don't write just quit now. Please, that would be great.
Christina Bradley 52:59
Everybody pens down!
Steve Garratt 53:02
Stop it go off and do something else. It's Yes, of course. Because Because the joy that you see, when some somebody picks up, somebody picks up a camera for the first time. And they go out and they take a bunch of pictures and the first 12 are of their feet, and the second, the next 12 are all out of focus. And then you get to the 30th shot. And suddenly, it's in focus. And, and and it's almost what they imagined in their eye, or they saw something. And you can see you can see this kind of glimmer of, of this idea. And they're looking at and they go Wow, I can't believe I took that. And that that that that journey that they've just gone on which they you can go on in an hour, literally from from picking a tool up to get into a point where you can first create something that you go, yeah, yeah, okay, that's all right. That's not bad. Now, it's gonna be 10,000 hours before your, you know, your, your, you know, a magnum photographer or something. But that might not be your journey, your journey might be to get to a point where you could take really nice pictures of your family. So that you can you can capture who they really are. And that's a wonderful creative journey to go on. Isn't that what a glorious thing rather than rather than relying on somebody else to try and capture your family he used to be able to do that's a wonderful thing, or teaching your your kids to draw. I spent loads of time working with my kids on my art projects and stuff, and spend most of the weekend building a massive cosplay hammer, with my daughter's just decided that she's massively into cosplay. So she wanted this huge hammer. So we had to we both had to learn loads and loads of different things to try and make this thing work. And it was great fun, and it was a really cool, creative journey for her. And at the end of it, she was like, Oh, I could make this now and I could make this. I was like, well, that's brilliant. She's never going to go off and be a sculptor or I You know, an artist?
Christina Bradley 55:01
And that's not the point is it anyway, that's just not the point. That's the process and embarking on that journey.
Steve Garratt 55:07
And that's the point. You know, the point, the point of being a creative isn't the end goal, the point of being a creative isn't the exhibition, or an art gallery, or your premiere in in Leicester Square, the point of being a creative is, is that any better way to go on a journey through life, you know, solving these wonderful little problems, looking at things from multiple angles, and constantly pushing your own comfort zone. And that's growth, isn't it? You know, and as soon as you stop growing, you stop living. It's this, there's many, many studies out there, but the, about the key to long life, and the top I watched this TED Talk is it you probably are probably find it and send you a link to him. It's like the top 10 things that extend people's lives. And I think number two or three was was learning. Just learning and constantly learning and they say, you know, read, reading will off will set off dementia, you know, the more you read, the less likely you are to begin to suffer with dementia, or Alzheimer's, you know, because because your brain is constantly rebuilding itself. Yeah. And the creative part of your brain is half of your brain, it's half of your brain,
Christina Bradley 56:29
Ironic when people say, Oh, I'm not creative, it's just like, you really are, it is half of your brain.
Steve Garratt 56:38
You just you just have to start etching these neural pathways. And you do that by challenging yourself. And that might be going out into your garden, picking a few flowers, pressing them in a book, drawing them out, right in a few things, as we're making a making a card for someone, you know, like, it could be as simple as that simple
Christina Bradley 56:56
And I think that's the thing, we have such grand ideas as to what creativity should look like actually, it really doesn't, it can be scaled right down onto a very simple and into very simple fashion that actually people can incorporate into their lives quite easily.
Steve Garratt 57:12
Yeah, creativity is about relationships. I mean, everything's about relationships. But creativity, you know, you can have a creative journey by engaging with a creative. So you could go and find a dressmaker and get them to make that dress that you can't afford. And you can work with them on that and they could teach you things and you can work together and you can go on a creative journey. Like my my sudden obsession with tattoos is because I get to spend seven hours a time sat with an artist as they paint and draw on my skin. What an extraordinary legacy wincing there.
Christina Bradley 57:54
There are other ways as well, there is, there are other ways,
Steve Garratt 57:57
There are many other ways you don't have to go through so much pain to achieve this. But it it has all the components to learning, it's, it's creative. It's it's human. So there's human contact, and there's an emotional component to it. And the emotional component is attached to the pain, but it's also attached to the pleasure. So like, the extraordinary thing about going through that pain is the endorphins you get at the other end of it. And those things, when packaged together create a really solid memory. Like they create a very complete memory, which you can recall, at any point in your life, you can go back to that, that conversation, and it's a seven hour conversation, I can go back to almost any point in that conversation with my tattooist because they, they're so attached, it's all so interrelated. And if you're finding in your life, you're just, you're just doing things that you don't feel anything for. Well, that's why you don't feel creative. Because you haven't got the emotional element as part of your journey, you're just doing a functional part of your journey you're just delivering, you're just filling in a spreadsheet or just doing you're just doing it with no emotional crown, or worst of all, it will be a really negative emotional component. And then so then you've got to balance that if you've got all that on one side. You have to pile up these positive things on the other side, otherwise you're living a life without balance. And and that's that's gonna just end in sadness as well. That's not going well.
Christina Bradley 59:35
No, quite. I didn't that's I think that's really interesting to also to think about that how all of these experiences that we're having and the richer the experiences of our life at have a direct correlation with our creativity and our ability to to access our creativity, I think by being able to recall these experiences. That's a really interesting way of looking I think it how how we strengthen that creative muscle.
Steve Garratt 1:00:01
Yeah, and recall, the recall is incredibly important. Because that's how you then get that thing to feed into the next thing you are doing. You know, being able to recall it from three years ago, five year old was that thing I did? Oh, remember that. I remember, we went to see that player that's back in factory. And they did that thing, whether the guy burst out of the box, and we all laughed, and it made us this, we could use that that was a really great, yeah, I'm just
Christina Bradley 1:00:23
Drawing on all these references.
Steve Garratt 1:00:25
Yeah, did they make that moment work? What was it about that moment, and then you suddenly, you know, then you're thinking about the engagement part of it. And, and that, that for me, I, you know, if I go and see an exhibition, I want to be emotionally engaged. I want I want it to surprise me, I want it to delight me, I want it to shock me I want it to, and they don't have to be that doesn't have to be an extreme thing. I'm not talking about you know, you haven't got shit on the bed. You know, you don't have to do that. Because you know, which isn't really, for everyone. It's a massive relief for everyone. But, you know, you can shop people doing something incredibly simple. You know, sometimes by stripping things away, and getting to the absolute core, so you can app you can nail it. And that's, you know, that's what writing really is getting is how do I say the thing I want to say, in in the most economical the most stripped back the most kind of neatest, rawist way, you know, you'll learn from your experience, you'll sit there rewrite in a line of dialogue again, and again and again and again. And then you'll come back to it two days. And you'll delete it. And realise that the reason it was so hard to write was because you didn't need it. You just completely kind of obsessed with it. And it was just like you were having one of your little writing moments VIII such a good line I've got
Christina Bradley 1:01:50
Yeah, I'm gonna make this perfect. It's gone.
Steve Garratt 1:01:54
Yeah. And, and, and it's all in the Edit. It's all in what you is. It's in what you don't do. Not in what you do do.
Christina Bradley 1:02:03
Yeah. Steve, we're running out of time. But I have one final question for you, which I've been using as a poignant way of kind of wrapping a bow around the whole interview. And as I've been asking my guests this question, it's been throwing everybody and also sending them off into a real spin on how to answer it. So I'm gonna try on you. I'm looking for a short, a short, succinct answer, if you can, can you tell me what living a creative life means to you, or what it looks like to you?
Steve Garratt 1:02:33
Living a creative life, to me means filling my life with joy. genuinely like finding moments of love, of compassion, of, of positivity, of sharing, engage all of that all of the good stuff, you know, the smile, the just that, that just that moment of pathos, where you've had a shared experience with somebody else's, either they've enjoyed something you've created, or you've gone and seen somebody else's creation, and you enjoyed that together, or you've disliked it and you found it both find it really funny, or whatever it is. Our jobs as creators is to is to evoke emotion, to draw emotion out of people to give people the opportunity to feel and at whatever level that is, if you're not making people feel something, then that's when you've failed as a creative.
Christina Bradley 1:03:38
I love it. That was a very good answer. I think you did well,
Steve Garratt 1:03:41
Okay. I didn't spin out you
Christina Bradley 1:03:44
No, you didn't spit out you didn't put out they just found it a really difficult question. Thank you so much Steve conversation has been an absolute joy. And maybe I'll have you back at some point. I fill it with carry on talking about this for a really long time.
Steve Garratt 1:03:58
I'd love to, I'd love to and good luck with this series. I hope it's a massive creative success for you.
Christina Bradley 1:04:04
Thank you.